[SH] Bad Gas

[Penril]

uhmmm how do i tell if sguig is fine if i cant compare it with other classes? (is really a question, i need to have some sort of comparation here or there)

squig can go melee and not die like anyother rpds, it also have speed skill and speed tactic. And his whole aoe build is all developed around frontline due the tactic sneaky stabbing and must he follow the tank that guard him; it's safer in the second lines than in the backlines with healers.
BW/sorc do pure damage but they do not have any controll aoe effect, SH do less damage but have CD aoe increase as tradeoff, for me this is fine. Hence the slayer need nerf not SH need a buff. If you top damage you cannot also top in controll. SH do not top in damage and have controll component / slayer both top in damage and both have a controll component that reduces enemys damages and healing efficency.

For starters, you could at least play the class for a few weeks (not saying you don't), preferably at max level. Play it in a premade, with different group setups. Try different specs to see which ones are useful and which ones need an adjustment.

Then, when (for example) you notice that a certain tree is underperforming compared to others, you can actually give solid evidence to this claim and maybe have that tree fixed/buffed. Same thing if you find a tree that is doing much better than it should.

At least, that's how i would proceed.

[Tesq]

As i said for my magus sometimes is really hard find ppl to test stuff with, also an aoe build is even harder due the fact that his role is working in the wb and not in 6 man party.
Then there are really no values (like damage scored in sc) to judge how much strong is or not a form of cc you just feel is op /good/ or not it also depend by opponents and your rotation.
IF we could at least have test dummy around to test stuff i could at least make a comparation of bw/sorc damages aoe difference vs the squigs one and provide more solid datas, same goes for dev proc etc, ppl may have something to tell about but just pretend that anytime you need to have max level class mean someone should have 24x classes.
I could also have informations based on how my old guild play with squigs and their frontline damages.

Not making a bias, just saying that ppl may have something good to tell and you cannot pretend that they have every time a lv max character . Thus it will be even harder with t4.

[Gobtar]

I wanted to share my thoughts on the Melee SH here but i feel a large breakdown is not appropriate here, I feel that the Melee Squig Herder suffers from many problems and those need to be addressed before bad gas can get a proper fix, any change to it now will make the underlying problem with Melee SHs more difficult to deal with if we get a bad gas bandaid.

[Penril]

Thing is this is not a thread for Melee SH. This is a thread for Bad Gas.

Now, the first question that should be asked is: Should Bad Gas be a class defining skill for SHs? By that, what i mean is: Should Bad Gas be a skill that can be reliable in any spec the SH chooses?

There are 2 answers for this. Yes and no. If yes, then we should give suggestions on how to make BG work in/out of Squig Armor. If no, an argument should be made.

At least, that's how i see it.

[Gobtar]

Thing is this is not a thread for Melee SH. This is a thread for Bad Gas.

I agree, I think a way that could make it really work regardless of what stance, is have it be a Ground targettable AoE that is fired off from the squig. This mitigates the insane difficulty of firing it off as an AOE centered on the squig or pure difficulty of popping it as goblin. It will work well from a range or melee perspective, but still requires some awareness to pull off effectively.
Using the squigs stats means it will mitigate the problem of stances and type of attack. It also is consistent with the tree that it belongs in.

Thoughts Penril?

Disagree with Gas Squig being strength. The squig is weak and easily killed. If you are in melee it will die fast...and there goes your STR!

I am in complete agreement, due to the nature of some of your tactics, keeping the gas squig near by can often be required, and the sheer amount of damage the squig will soak means often you are blowing them up and resummoning them (I got lotz), Not only that but if you are not being focused you will often switch to the Spiked squig for some greater burst in combination with M2. (It's still pretty mediocre but every bit helps)

[Foxbeep]

Thing is this is not a thread for Melee SH. This is a thread for Bad Gas.

I agree, I think a way that could make it really work regardless of what stance, is have it be a Ground targettable AoE that is fired off from the squig. This mitigates the insane difficulty of firing it off as an AOE centered on the squig or pure difficulty of popping it as goblin. It will work well from a range or melee perspective, but still requires some awareness to pull off effectively.
Using the squigs stats means it will mitigate the problem of stances and type of attack. It also is consistent with the tree that it belongs in.

Thoughts Penril?

Inb4 every WB nukes every squig the moment it comes within 65 feet

[Gobtar]

Inb4 every WB nukes every squig the moment it comes within 65 feet

There is your counterplay

[porkstar]

Thing is this is not a thread for Melee SH. This is a thread for Bad Gas.

Now, the first question that should be asked is: Should Bad Gas be a class defining skill for SHs? By that, what i mean is: Should Bad Gas be a skill that can be reliable in any spec the SH chooses?

There are 2 answers for this. Yes and no. If yes, then we should give suggestions on how to make BG work in/out of Squig Armor. If no, an argument should be made.

At least, that's how i see it.

Yes it should be class defining.

BG should be similar to farty squig except that you ground target an area, squig runs to area and explodes, bad gas as PBAoE from point of squig suicide. If squig is killed early, the PBAoE is from spot of death. Instant squig summon on next different squig. BG should be fairly high up on tree so that a ranged SH would noticeably downgrade its ranged ability to take BG.

[Penril]

I don't like the idea of it coming from the pet. This is how it used to work on live anyway until some patch (i think it was 1.4.3?) changed it to what it is today (shooting from the herder himself). I'm sure there were long discussions about it and i guess the change was justified. Rolling back to it being fired from the pet is just... i don't know...

However, if this was another case of Mythic throwing out a change no one asked for, and SHs back then were against it, then yeah. I would see no problem with rolling back to BG being applied by the pet.

Honestly, the easiest solution i see is BG using Bal instead of Str, so it can be reliably used by the SH in any spec, in and out of Squig Armor. If anyone is against this, i would like to read your opinions.

[porkstar]

I don't like the idea of it coming from the pet. This is how it used to work on live anyway until some patch (i think it was 1.4.3?) changed it to what it is today (shooting from the herder himself). I'm sure there were long discussions about it and i guess the change was justified. Rolling back to it being fired from the pet is just... i don't know...

Honestly, the easiest solution i see is BG using Bal instead of Str, so it can be reliably used by the SH in any spec, in and out of Squig Armor. If anyone is against this, i would like to read your opinions.

Fired from herder is certainly more reliable. I'm sure with pet pathing issues it's really a win/win to remove pet from the equation. I like the idea of a ground target sim to landmine or etc. I agree BS should be the hit/miss variable (along with target's dodge rating).