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Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:22 am
by emiliorv
Stop spreading nonsense, this stupid city instance comp is filled with more melee dps than ranged...
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:23 am
by Earthcake
Ysaran wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:19 am
I would like to point out that goblin and their mobility is a problem only if you play solo. When I play on Order I have no problems catching goblins WITH MY PARTY. This is a group-based game, group up and you'll see that goblins aren't that difficult to deal with.
If you don't want to group up, it's your problem. Solo has always been disincentivized in this server
Using which tools exactly ?
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:24 am
by Ysaran
Earthcake wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:18 am
Most melee reroll to rdps cause they are tired of being kited while having 0 chance to fight back. If that doesn't lead to less melee in proportion, i don't know what would.
@Alfa1986 said that underpopulation imply excess in dps (underpopulation->too many dps). He never talked about goblins, melees and other things. I don't see the logic behind his assertion and you statements so far are unrelated. That's it
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:27 am
by Ysaran
Earthcake wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:23 am
Ysaran wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:19 am
I would like to point out that goblin and their mobility is a problem only if you play solo. When I play on Order I have no problems catching goblins WITH MY PARTY. This is a group-based game, group up and you'll see that goblins aren't that difficult to deal with.
If you don't want to group up, it's your problem. Solo has always been disincentivized in this server
Using which tools exactly ?
rKD and Champion Challenge is only an example. Pounce and WL M1 is another one. AM puddle. There are a lot of tools to stop ppl from running. These tools are spread over many classes. Get a decent comp and use those tool with coordination
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:37 am
by emiliorv
Ysaran wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:27 am
Earthcake wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:23 am
Ysaran wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:19 am
I would like to point out that goblin and their mobility is a problem only if you play solo. When I play on Order I have no problems catching goblins WITH MY PARTY. This is a group-based game, group up and you'll see that goblins aren't that difficult to deal with.
If you don't want to group up, it's your problem. Solo has always been disincentivized in this server
Using which tools exactly ?
rKD and Champion Challenge is only an example. Pounce and WL M1 is another one. AM puddle. There are a lot of tools to stop ppl from running. These tools are spread over many classes. Get a decent comp and use those tool with coordination
How many solo shamans (or solo rSHs) chase fgs?? probably they trying to save his ass...if you really cant catch him let him go, when roaming with smalls grps we usually dont care about loners, we will kill them if its a easy catch, but i will not keep running behing a solo enemy whos running from me (waste of time)...so really dunno whats the problem here (only a solo issue)
The issues with run away are 100% solo issues, the whines around this tactic probably was the reason for the gap closers nerf...but ok, keep on it.
also, again....this instance is filled with more MDPS, so your afirmation is wrong:
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:37 am
by Earthcake
You mean use those tools with coordination while destro is playing watching TV i guess, cuz how will u ever get in range for pounce in the 1st place or even get someone to have pounce in their spe right now... Or run to someone during a rKD while being snared ?
Ofc if 6vs1 u can do everything, but let s start by being honest (not like someone using a SS of ONE SINGLE city instance cherry picked from thousands to prove his point), there is a reason destro pop>order pop, and billions goblins are in the fields, and that s NOT cuz it s easy to catch them.
I won t respond more to this if u cannot start by being honest, then i will leave u to it and u can say u won that argument
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:40 am
by Rapzel
Sundowner wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:59 am
Oh, I thought you asked me to record all my cities and present evidence, but if you want balance, here you go: (please note not only this contributes to city winrates now):
Destro has better and more cd decreasers.
Mara has roughly the same dmg as WL, but has much more utility with aoe KD and debuffs.
aoe SH>aoe SW
Destro has better CC tools
Destro has more options for optimal WB composition and more self-reliant classes
If you want deeper dive into this, you can go back and reread some responses to this topic
1. Okay so what? You're telling us destro wins because of CD reduction?
2. Mara has lower damage currently, but more survivability, WL has more mobility to weigh up "utility"
3. mSH is better than aSW yes, but rSW is probably better in WB than any SH atm, just looking at damage numbers.
4. Highly arbitrary statement, gtdc and aoe kd or what are you talking about here?
5. Destro has less career choices for OPTIMAL WB, Destro has more balance among DPS careers for WB (which allows for a wider selection of DPS careers), but also worse "OPTIMAL" WB.
And let's not forget that order still has access to the 4 best careers in KotBS, Slayer, BW and WP.
The only career people really don't want in WBs is WH, and the same applies to WE.
//Angry IB player
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:46 am
by Alfa1986
Ysaran wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:48 am
Alfa1986 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:31 am
wonshot wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:46 am
Well since this is a screenshot i originally posted earlier this morning on ror discord, I guess i can go in and comfirm this was a pure 100% soloqueue situation of how order and destro archtype balance looks like in the extreme cases. On destro we chatted about how unreal it was that we had close to a perfect 2-2-2 pug comp, one dok was dps so maybe it was actually 8-8-8 but after order gave up i asked in the scenario chat if anyone was queueing as a 12man, 6man or even a duo queue. to all the responses i got an "im here solo" from atleast 10 of the people who bothered replying. Since order didnt come out after two wipes i took the time to check the guildtags of all of destro(only two had the same guildtag out of the 24 and that was not a guild i associate with tryhard premades), and with a little personal knowledge of what guilds are in alliance i would say it was fairly confirmed that this was a pure 24x1 destro solo queue with random perfect balance between the archtypes.
and i posted it on the discord because i do believe no matter what is done from a developer standpoint this issue is within the Order realm. And if we ask ourselves why people dont play knight and warriorpriest for example, its not exactly because the classes are bad or underperforming..
tl:dr order had a random pug instance with zero tanks and two AM healers rest were solohero dps. On destro they won the jackpot and had a perfect 8-8-8 archtype split and everyone were soloQ
may be this happens because destroside is overpopulated, and order is underpopulated right now, and therefore the system selects the "true" setup for destroside, the "wrong" one for order. more clearly, for the order, it is made from what it is, at least somehow to fill the mirror. maybe restrict all healers for a solo queue in this case?) it would be a battle for survival, who has the best dps will win). if the system cannot recruit healers for one of the sides, it would be more honest that two sides playing without healers than the example shown in the image
I get your point, but I don't think that being underpopulated is an excuse to bad class distribution. I mean, how is related the distribution of tank/healers/dps with the numbers of player? Keep in mind that the population difference between the 2 realms is usually around 80-100 ppl. We aren't talking of big numbers
Let's say you have an imbalance on one side in twice. since many more people traditionally play for dps than for tanks and for healers, then the difference will also be in twice.
let's say the ratio of classes dd 50% tanks 30% healers 20% for both sides, but the total number of players for destruction is 100 ppl, for order 50.
turns out
for destro 50 + 30 + 20
for order 25 + 15 + 10
accordingly, destro can place 2 fully balanced WBs, the order has only 1 balanced WB, the another WB will be without healers or with 2 healers.
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:56 am
by emiliorv
Rapzel wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:40 am
5. Destro has less career choices for OPTIMAL WB, Destro has more balance among DPS careers for WB (which allows for a wider selection of DPS careers), but also worse "OPTIMAL" WB.
Destro has more balance among DPS because their "best picks" was nerfed one by one...when marauders was on top destro stacked them, at first to drain morales and after morale drain fro pure dmg...when morale drain was nerfed and dmg too there is no reason to keep staking them. after the "marauder meta" came the choppa, but got nerfed too...now that mostly order city instances are filled with pure pugs looks like mSH is a good pick, since its a excellent PUG-killer...since destro dont have any overtuned dps you have more options to chose, well really 3: mara/choppa/mSH to form the core of the wb.
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:00 am
by Sundowner
Rapzel wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:40 am
Sundowner wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:59 am
Oh, I thought you asked me to record all my cities and present evidence, but if you want balance, here you go: (please note not only this contributes to city winrates now):
Destro has better and more cd decreasers.
Mara has roughly the same dmg as WL, but has much more utility with aoe KD and debuffs.
aoe SH>aoe SW
Destro has better CC tools
Destro has more options for optimal WB composition and more self-reliant classes
If you want deeper dive into this, you can go back and reread some responses to this topic
1. Okay so what? You're telling us destro wins because of CD reduction?
2. Mara has lower damage currently, but more survivability, WL has more mobility to weigh up "utility"
3. mSH is better than aSW yes, but rSW is probably better in WB than any SH atm, just looking at damage numbers.
4. Highly arbitrary statement, gtdc and aoe kd or what are you talking about here?
5. Destro has less career choices for OPTIMAL WB, Destro has more balance among DPS careers for WB (which allows for a wider selection of DPS careers), but also worse "OPTIMAL" WB.
And let's not forget that order still has access to the 4 best careers in KotBS, Slayer, BW and WP.
The only career people really don't want in WBs is WH, and the same applies to WE.
//Angry IB player
It will be good if you learn to read previous posts before typing anything. This is merely things destro has advantage in, but not solely reasons why order has lower winrate, because player mindset is also a problem, as is distribution of classes.
1. Yes, that is part of the advantages destro has.
2. Mara has the same dmg as WL, literally the same AOE skills, 50% armor ignore. plus mara has access to 50% crit dmg bonus (WL needs pet for it, pet is useless in city) and crit rate increase. WLs mobility, i.e. pounce is rarely used in cities, only in niche situations.
3. rSW is better than mSH in city? it is funny, not even gonna comment on that.
4. Yes. or you think GTDC and aoe kd are not very good cc tools?
5. Plainly wrong. order having 4 better careers still leaves 8 for destro, hence more options to compose viable WB.
These are advantages destro has, but is it only reason order looses? clearly not. As I have said situation is very nuanced, with several reasons and not clearly defined solution.