Overarching balance changes

[Genisaurus]

I just want to point out that implementing the functionality of Buffhead2 into the game is something we will never be able to do, not even with client control.

Client control means we could create, change, or remove assets - things like models, textures, animations, sounds, and in some cases text and some equations. We could change or perhaps even create abilities. We could, in theory, replace entire maps (though that's a monumental task).

What we cannot do is change the game's actual code, nor change the packets it sends or expects to retrieve. Changing how information is rendered and presented to the user without using the "AddOn functionality" may well be impossible. As such, a set of "default AddOns" is a perfectly reasonable solution and one we have already started looking into.

After all, there are AddOns whose functionality is so simple and their need so obvious that it's a wonder they weren't included in the first place. Sulenmunk has an eye for these sorts of things - The Tome of Knowledge will track how many times I click myself while naked, but it doesn't track my Kill/Death stats like Deathblow does? My buff bar doesn't show me what CC I'm suffering from in an easy-to-read manner like CCTV does? These kinds of AddOns are prime candidates for a "default" list. Turn them off if you don't want them, but they do nothing but improve your experience by being there.

[Valfaros]

To be honest I didn't really like it how assist was implemented on live either. Still used it but always thought it's not that good.
To the others things I think there should be first a working UI for crucial things of the game mechanics before we discuss balance on abilitys. If premades get more out of it so be it but atleast the standarts are on the same level. If people don't assist when you put a cross on the target then it's their fault if they use different things to assist (addons makros ..) it's not. I think we just won't get on the same page here mainly because I know so many people who just say they don't want all these addons but that doesn't matter we just discuss and we don't have to get on the same page.

Also for solo quers there should be an option to change classes. Don't know if that is possible but matches where you join and there is zero heal could get less awful when some players can change to heal or guard.

Why implement something that's not really needed AND will benefit premades way more than Pugs? That makes absolutely zero sense.

That's why there is an if you just say they will benefit more from it but I rather think that it will closes the gap a bit. Sure premades get something out of it but people without any addons or different assist addons will benefit more than people that already do all these things specially people who play day by day together. They will have a perfect assist anyway while a lot of players don't assist at all.

After all, there are AddOns whose functionality is so simple and their need so obvious that it's a wonder they weren't included in the first place. Sulenmunk has an eye for these sorts of things - The Tome of Knowledge will track how many times I click myself while naked, but it doesn't track my Kill/Death stats like Deathblow does? My buff bar doesn't show me what CC I'm suffering from in an easy-to-read manner like CCTV does? These kinds of AddOns are prime candidates for a "default" list. Turn them off if you don't want them, but they do nothing but improve your experience by being there.

Well this sounds perfectly fine too.

[Tankbeardz]

I just want to point out that implementing the functionality of Buffhead2 into the game is something we will never be able to do, not even with client control.

Client control means we could create, change, or remove assets - things like models, textures, animations, sounds, and in some cases text and some equations. We could change or perhaps even create abilities. We could, in theory, replace entire maps (though that's a monumental task).

What we cannot do is change the game's actual code, nor change the packets it sends or expects to retrieve. Changing how information is rendered and presented to the user without using the "AddOn functionality" may well be impossible. As such, a set of "default AddOns" is a perfectly reasonable solution and one we have already started looking into.

After all, there are AddOns whose functionality is so simple and their need so obvious that it's a wonder they weren't included in the first place. Sulenmunk has an eye for these sorts of things - The Tome of Knowledge will track how many times I click myself while naked, but it doesn't track my Kill/Death stats like Deathblow does? My buff bar doesn't show me what CC I'm suffering from in an easy-to-read manner like CCTV does? These kinds of AddOns are prime candidates for a "default" list. Turn them off if you don't want them, but they do nothing but improve your experience by being there.

+1

[roadkillrobin]

I belive the Kills/Death tracking thing was brough up on the live forums and i remember something about answear being that it's a PVP game and both kills and death against other players are inevteble and they didn't want to make it something that people would obsess over coz it would lead to people avoiding goin out in the lakes when they clearly had inferior numbers aswell as sitting AFK in spawn camps when facing better grousp in scenarios.

[Vigfuss]

I think this thread is just showing how important the role of tank really is, and how few players actually get it, and even fewer who've actually mastered it. It was like this on live too. And even with voice coms, great tanks are not that common.

Assisting is the other thing that people have trouble doing, but everyone has access to swift assist, which is all you need, whether in PM or pugging. Swift assist is especially good for pugging because you can change who you're assisting in literally one second.

I think a slightly improved starter addon pack would be a good thing in general. But expecting more from the average player will probably end in disappointment even with some extra handholding with addons and stuff.

[Zealote]

I belive the Kills/Death tracking thing was brough up on the live forums and i remember something about answear being that it's a PVP game and both kills and death against other players are inevteble and they didn't want to make it something that people would obsess over coz it would lead to people avoiding goin out in the lakes when they clearly had inferior numbers aswell as sitting AFK in spawn camps when facing better grousp in scenarios.

Not surprised, a lot of people who used DK were like this anyway.

[Akalukz]

Thanks Genisaurus for the clarification.

[roadkillrobin]

I think this thread is just showing how important the role of tank really is, and how few players actually get it, and even fewer who've actually mastered it. It was like this on live too. And even with voice coms, great tanks are not that common.

Assisting is the other thing that people have trouble doing, but everyone has access to swift assist, which is all you need, whether in PM or pugging. Swift assist is especially good for pugging because you can change who you're assisting in literally one second.

I think a slightly improved starter addon pack would be a good thing in general. But expecting more from the average player will probably end in disappointment even with some extra handholding with addons and stuff.

Never tried swift assist, I use a normal /assist macro what does it do????

[grumcajs]

@Stmichael1989

I understand your point. Just try to understand mine. Have you seen in this game when population was lower and there were just tons of rdps classes online without any solid number of tanks? It was really artilery duels cuz mdps were obliterated the moment they got spotted and focused. No amount of healers can keep mdps classes alive against focus fire without guard. In order to make tanks less tough you would have to monumentaly rework rdps damage to increase TTK.

I have never played TF2 but I guess its not the same from dmg and support pov. But again I have never played it so I do not know.

And about huge utility...
mdps classes have also support - snare, aoe snare,knockdown, pull, heal debuffs (some double), armor debuffs, (mara armor,ap,heal debuff,wounds), shatter limbs,chop fasta,silence,disarm
rdps classes - aoe snare, snare, order kd, aoe pull,stagger,aoe kd,heal debuffs, SW crit buff,silence,disarm

its not like only only tanks have access to these abilties...

Its very easy to just state tank are - low dmg but high support and survivability
but you can also state - rdps are high dmg, medium support and medium survivability (based on range and some on awesome mobility). same can be said about mdps where their survivability doesnt come from range but instead from tank guarding them.

Also tank (and healers) can still be victim of CC - punt tank out of guard range, stagger healers etc. when dps are dead there is very little tank with healers can do .

Also about that mitigation cap - try to imagine BW and sorc heavy grp with zealot/sham/AM/RP. with 80% resists? really? Or when WHs and SWs ambush backlines? and all you can do is run cuz you do not have enough physical rdps in your backlines to do any dmg? this idea sounds kinda lacking in so many ways and as I said before - it would require complete game and playstyle overhaul to make it work

[Vigfuss]

Never tried swift assist, I use a normal /assist macro what does it do????

It writes the same kind of macro for you, but it's easier to use. It gives you a macro to set your MA, and another one to get their target. It also displays the MA's name on your screen.

Just install the addon, and then find the two macro's it gives you in your macro list. Drag them to your hotbar. Just make sure you use the right assist macro button, because it looks exactly the same as one of the macros that comes with enemy. Blue arrows (to set MA), and blue crossed swords(to assist).

Edit: The MA button will set your friendly target to your MA. Just select the person, hit the button, done.