[Magus, Engineer] Buff like in never released patch 1.4.9

[Abolition]

So lets go with the Magus here:

Here's a list of the Maguses utility/CC

A 3 second disarm with a 2 second cast time and a 30 second cooldown.
That also does more then x2 base dmg of sorc one- the disarm being a nice bonus- not to mention that it is 1 sec with CQ tactic which sorc won't take.
A very small knockback with a 1 second cast time, 10 second cooldown, 65 ft range.
Ask how many sorc would love to get that.
An AoE interrupt, 1 second cast time, 10 second cooldown, 65 ft range.
Agree, wasn't really useful.
A 3 second stagger (wow a joke), landmine. 15 second cooldown.
As a small clue, 3 sec matches a WH's KD. Pop one if you think WH is around. And if you didn't know that, no wonder you lost to 90%+.
A terrible melee range snare.
Which however does a very nice dps, especially after resist debuff.
A 3 second Kd based around pet, that requires you to kill your mechanic and have to resummon it.
A 3 sec KD is still very nice to finish off healers who lost some hp, and such.

And heres the Sorcs:

A ranged snare with a 2 second cast time, 10 second cooldown. - Better than Magus
Ask any sorc what it is actually good for- as is, if there was ever a single sorc who used it for snare, instead of part of the rotation.
A 3 second disarm, 1 second cast time, 30 second cooldown, and isn't specced like the Magus - Better than Magus
The magus disarm however actually does a good dmg, and with CQ tactic has same cast time- see above.
Willpower debuff.
Do you actually believe Word of Pain is used by sorcs for will debuff?
Aoe initiative debuff.
That no actual sorc ever uses. Why would a Sorc use this when Shattered Shadows is already available?
A tactic that causes some spells to drain AP, debuff strength, ballistic, and intelligence.
That no actual sorc ever uses.
A tactic that causes the majority of your AoE skill to knockback.
That is only used to knock order off walls. I don't even know why Foof brought up. "Hey guys, watch me drop some AOE and knock Order out of it"?
A group absorb shield tactic.
Which is only used if sorc is trying to solo a bit.

I was going to make a post like this, but it turns out someone got to it before I did!

[foof]

So lets go with the Magus here:

Here's a list of the Maguses utility/CC

A 3 second disarm with a 2 second cast time and a 30 second cooldown.
That also does more then x2 base dmg of sorc one- the disarm being a nice bonus- not to mention that it is 1 sec with CQ tactic which sorc won't take.
A very small knockback with a 1 second cast time, 10 second cooldown, 65 ft range.
Ask how many sorc would love to get that.
An AoE interrupt, 1 second cast time, 10 second cooldown, 65 ft range.
Agree, wasn't really useful.
A 3 second stagger (wow a joke), landmine. 15 second cooldown.
As a small clue, 3 sec matches a WH's KD. Pop one if you think WH is around. And if you didn't know that, no wonder you lost to 90%+.
A terrible melee range snare.
Which however does a very nice dps, especially after resist debuff.
A 3 second Kd based around pet, that requires you to kill your mechanic and have to resummon it.
A 3 sec KD is still very nice to finish off healers who lost some hp, and such.

And heres the Sorcs:

A ranged snare with a 2 second cast time, 10 second cooldown. - Better than Magus
Ask any sorc what it is actually good for- as is, if there was ever a single sorc who used it for snare, instead of part of the rotation.
A 3 second disarm, 1 second cast time, 30 second cooldown, and isn't specced like the Magus - Better than Magus
The magus disarm however actually does a good dmg, and with CQ tactic has same cast time- see above.
Willpower debuff.
Do you actually believe Word of Pain is used by sorcs for will debuff?
Aoe initiative debuff.
That no actual sorc ever uses. Why would a Sorc use this when Shattered Shadows is already available?
A tactic that causes some spells to drain AP, debuff strength, ballistic, and intelligence.
That no actual sorc ever uses.
A tactic that causes the majority of your AoE skill to knockback.
That is only used to knock order off walls. I don't even know why Foof brought up. "Hey guys, watch me drop some AOE and knock Order out of it"?
A group absorb shield tactic.
Which is only used if sorc is trying to solo a bit.

I was going to make a post like this, but it turns out someone got to it before I did!

And apparently, both you and him fail at reading comprehension. This was not a comprehensive analysis of how good or in what situations what utility/CC spells are used for. It was a very simple list, listing all of the utility options for both classes. I specifically listed everything, regardless of how useful it was, obviously, nobody is going to run a lot of those tactics, but it doesn't mean they do not exist.

Assuming that I am implying that either class is going to have all those options available to them at any given time is an ultimate fail of reading comprehension.

The point of the list is to show that the Magus's CC and Utility advantage over the Sorc does not in any way shape or form, equate to the damage difference.

If you'd like to argue that the Magus's CC and Utility advantage over the Sorc is equivalent to the Sorcs damage over the Magus, we can do that, but it hasn't even begun to be touched.

[foof]

Considering that you admitted yourself that you lost 90%+ of the fights you were in, while I won the most I was in, you have a pretty interesting definition of a good player.

Stop with the strawman arguments. Are fights duels? No. Were you specifically dueling the best players who were over RR90 on your server? No. You have NEVER even attempted what I am talking about. You literally can't even understand the difference between a fight and a duel, and your RR80 Magus would have lost 100% of duels to RR90+ players. You wouldn't know this, because its OBVIOUS, you've never done it. Please learn to read.

Llell, RR 80 or so, played on Krag_Norn I think was it most of the time. As for a complete fool- see the post above, you don't even seem to know what magus utility is good for. Not to mention having no idea how other classes work- see sorc part.

I know exactly how the Sorc works. Listing their potential options for CC/Utility isn't the same as saying that THEY USE THEM. Your reading comprehension and analytical skills are honestly so bad I'm considering not even responding to your posts because it is like trying to discuss something to someone with brain damage.

You were an RR80 Magus, who nobody ever heard of. Wow great job. Please keep talking about how you know what happens at RR90-100. It is clear you've never experienced it, which is funny.

Considering that as rr 70-80 I killed solo quite a few RR 100...

Sure you did bud. Sure you did.

What it proves is that you didn't even managed to read what I posted, not to mention that I had beat order which quite a higher RR then 25.

I've read exactly what you've posted and can actually comprehend it and respond to your posts showing that I can comprehend what you write WITHOUT having to resort to fallacious logic, i.e. the straw man and ad hoc arguments you keep making. But honestly, good job!

What this actually proves it that you have a problem with a reading comprehension. Not to mention that so far your posts can be summed up as "I sucked, so everybody else must had sucked too".

No my posts, if read, are based on actuality. I was in constant discussion both in game (Volkmar) and on the forums with every RR90+ Magus about the state of the class for years. Who are you again? Oh that's right, nobody. Your grandiose claims of how good Maguses are based on your anecdotal evidence that has no basis in proof or reality, the fact that you were completely absent from the Magus community, your lack of ability to craft a logical non-fallacious arguments, and your low RR show me that you are just an arrogant fool. Yep, Maguses are fine because you were such a good player.

At the very least, your posts are good for a laugh. At the very worst, your inability to comprehend your own logical failings show that you need to rethink your approach to basic debate techniques.

[foof]

Now im not a magus/engie player BUT i want to ask this, i thought that engie/mag would be good 1 1v1 duel duels due to 50% detaunt that dosnt get removed by dmg?

It does indeed, get removed by damage.

[bloodi]

At the very least, your posts are good for a laugh. At the very worst, your inability to comprehend your own logical failings show that you need to rethink your approach to basic debate techniques.

You are this close to post about your experience fighting Al Qaeda and your over 300 confirmed kills and how you are an expert in Gorilla Warfare.

Maybe you should rethink where you are, this is not your high school debate group anymore, insulting people and calling everything fallacies only makes you look bad.

[foof]

Here's a list of the Maguses utility/CC

A 3 second disarm with a 2 second cast time and a 30 second cooldown.
That also does more then x2 base dmg of sorc one- the disarm being a nice bonus- not to mention that it is 1 sec with CQ tactic which sorc won't take.

This is an example of your fallacious argument techniques. You only look at it from one perspective and discount everything else.

Yes it does more base damge than the sorc version BECAUSE IT HAS TWICE THE CAST TIME. DUH. The disarm isn't a "nice bonus" it's the reason to use it.

And Sorcs can and do use CQ, because you know, they have access to it too. Not always of course, because they are a class that doesn't have to use it to do decent damage, but they can also use CQ whenever they want, once again achieving the same result. /facepalm

A very small knockback with a 1 second cast time, 10 second cooldown, 65 ft range.
Ask how many sorc would love to get that.

Once again, your comment completely misses the point. It's not "how many sorcs would love to get that". How many Maguses would love to get Sorc damage? That's not the point, whatsoever. The point is that the Maguses utility SHOULD be WAY better than the Sorcs, beacause a Maguses damage is WAY worse. Very very simple concept, I hope you can understand that.


An AoE interrupt, 1 second cast time, 10 second cooldown, 65 ft range.
Agree, wasn't really useful.

Actually, it was pretty useful if used correctly. Once again, to reiterate. I'm just listing the CC/utility options for these classes, not analyzing how useful they are.


A 3 second stagger (wow a joke), landmine. 15 second cooldown.
As a small clue, 3 sec matches a WH's KD. Pop one if you think WH is around. And if you didn't know that, no wonder you lost to 90%+.


That's not a clue, thats Magus 101 and something you should know at level 20. Once again your ad-hoc personal attack shows the clear weakness in your argument.

The point is, 3 second staggers are a joke, and the Staggers in this game were much better when they were longer. The devs kneejerk nerfed Staggers because of the game dying and complaints that "CC was too long". Having staggers be of lower or equal duration to knockdowns is horrible game design.

Both the Magus and Engie (and knight and chosen) Staggers should be 5 seconds, minimum.


A terrible melee range snare.
Which however does a very nice dps, especially after resist debuff.

If you think that spamming a medium damage melee range single target snare on a RDPS class is "good DPS", it shows why the rest of your arguments make absolutely no sense.


A 3 second Kd based around pet, that requires you to kill your mechanic and have to resummon it.
A 3 sec KD is still very nice to finish off healers who lost some hp, and such.

I'm not saying the KD is or was useless. It does have its uses, but it requires so many variables to go right in your favor it makes the ability far too situational to be considered good enough for a class that should have high utility/CC. Also, unless you are running up to healers, resummoning your pet, and then blowing it up, you won't be ever doing that unless your opponents are too stupid to take the 2 seconds it takes to blow the stupid turret up.

The ability shouldnt destroy the turret, at the very least. Why should the Engie/Magus have to kill their already fragile immobile, long cast time mechanic just to use their knockdown?

And heres the Sorcs:

A ranged snare with a 2 second cast time, 10 second cooldown. - Better than Magus
Ask any sorc what it is actually good for- as is, if there was ever a single sorc who used it for snare, instead of part of the rotation.


Thats exactly the point. Thank you for making my point. The Sorc Snare, which is leagues better than the Maguses (simply not being melee range means its way better), isn't even USED by most sorcs because it hurts their DPS rotation. Regardless, good Sorcs did and still use this skill when appropriate and necessary. Stopping a fleeing target from getting away from your team you know, is a good thing. Even this skill, which Sorcs rarely use, is still situationally usefull and still a billion times better than the Maguses garbage snare.

A 3 second disarm, 1 second cast time, 30 second cooldown, and isn't specced like the Magus - Better than Magus
The magus disarm however actually does a good dmg, and with CQ tactic has same cast time- see above.

See my rebuttal of your argument above. The Sorc can also use CQ if they want, negating your argument there, and the Sorcs does "good damage" too because you know, the Sorcs have a lot more damage multipliers than the Magus. They also don't even have to spec for it...


Willpower debuff.
Do you actually believe Word of Pain is used by sorcs for will debuff?


Once again, you miss the point. This is about what utility these classes have, not why they are used. Do they use it for the willpower debuff? Of course not. Is cutting down an enemy healers heals slightly when you are trying to kill them useless? No. Obviously, the primary use of the skill isn't a willpower debuff, but that doesn't mean that an attached willpower debuff is bad. Its just a bonus.


Aoe initiative debuff.
That no actual sorc ever uses.


Once again, not the point. They still have the option. There are plenty of things I listed for the Magus that aren't very often used, or only situationally useful. The Magus doesn't even have an initiate debuff, which is fine, because its not good, but I wanted to be FAIR here and list EVERYTHING.


A tactic that causes some spells to drain AP, debuff strength, ballistic, and intelligence.
That no actual sorc ever uses.


Yes, read above. Its not about effectiveness its about options. Sorcs don't use this because they are actually trying to do damage and kill things, unlike Maguses who stack toughness and tickle their enemies (like you!).


A tactic that causes the majority of your AoE skill to knockback.
That is only used to knock order off walls.


So? What's wrong with knocking people off walls or away from you or over cliffs? Nothing. Once again, it's about options to do something.


A group absorb shield tactic.
Which is only used if sorc is trying to solo a bit.

Yep, so what? Once again, this is about options. Maguses don't use 8 tactics at once either.




Also, I'd like you and everyone to note, that you completely didn't even go through my full list. You cherry picked what you wanted to say was useless on the Sorc, while ignoring what is useless on the Magus (like the AP regen tactic, that nobody ever runs). If you are going to try and line by line go through my list and evaluate it, either do it for EVERY line, or don't do it at all. Watching you cherry pick certain lines to try and substantiate your weak argument instantly signifies that you are not willing to even try to objectively view this subject and debate with any kind of integrity.

[foof]

At the very least, your posts are good for a laugh. At the very worst, your inability to comprehend your own logical failings show that you need to rethink your approach to basic debate techniques.

You are this close to post about your experience fighting Al Qaeda and your over 300 confirmed kills and how you are an expert in Gorilla Warfare.

Maybe you should rethink where you are, this is not your high school debate group anymore, insulting people and calling everything fallacies only makes you look bad.

Yes, I should just let people I am arguing with on these forums use horrible arguments without pointing out that what they are posting makes absolutely no sense.

Great idea! Thanks for your input. I'll be sure to never use it.

And here's a tip for you: I'm not embellishing anything. If I wanted to embellish, I'd be talking about how my RR80 Magus was sooooo goood and would routinely beat RR100 players...

Yea...

[Libra]

Too lazy to read all this nonsense. Great idea otherwise.

[bloodi]

Yes, I should just let people I am arguing with on these forums use horrible arguments without pointing out that what they are posting makes absolutely no sense.

Great idea! Thanks for your input. I'll be sure to never use it.

And here's a tip for you: I'm not embellishing anything. If I wanted to embellish, I'd be talking about how my RR80 Magus was sooooo goood and would routinely beat RR100 players...

Yea...

No, actually if you stopped calling everything a fallacy and basing your arguments in "i know better" it would be plenty.

Hell, i doubt you even know what "fallacy" means, you just use it as your "i dont want to discuss this" triumph card.

You have two people who played magus talking what things are good about them while you insult both, call everything a fallacy and are hellbent in talking about how they are not a sorc and they dont do sorc damage.

For someone trying to mock others readiing comprehesion, picking up a book about it wouldnt do you harm.

[foof]

Yes, I should just let people I am arguing with on these forums use horrible arguments without pointing out that what they are posting makes absolutely no sense.

Great idea! Thanks for your input. I'll be sure to never use it.

And here's a tip for you: I'm not embellishing anything. If I wanted to embellish, I'd be talking about how my RR80 Magus was sooooo goood and would routinely beat RR100 players...

Yea...

No, actually if you stopped calling everything a fallacy and basing your arguments in "i know better" it would be plenty.

Hell, i doubt you even know what "fallacy" means, you just use it as your "i dont want to discuss this" triumph card.

You have two people who played magus talking what things are good about them while you insult both, call everything a fallacy and are hellbent in talking about how they are not a sorc and they dont do sorc damage.

For someone trying to mock others readiing comprehesion, picking up a book about it wouldnt do you harm.

I'm not calling "everything a fallacy" I'm calling fallacies fallacies. There is a large difference. My arguments are not based on "I know better", I give very specific reasoning for what I am writing.

I will help you out though since you are the only who clearly doesn't know what fallacies are (also is a "trump" card, not a "triumph" card.

These are the two primary logical fallacies I have to keep calling out:

The Ad Hominem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

and the Straw Man
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Not only do I state which SPECFIC fallacious argument is being used directly when it is being used, but I am using the concept properly.

Do me a favor though. Prove your argument. Find an example of when I call an argument a logical fallacy, and prove that it isn't. Quote the post, and make your argument. If you aren't willing to do that, then why keep posting about how I am using the concept incorrectly when you offer no proof other than "you aren't using it right". I am specifically state what fallacies are being used and what statements those logical fallacies pertain to.

And seriously, why comment on my reading comprehension when you clearly do not understand what I am saying whatsoever.

You said, and I quote "talking about how they are not a sorc and don't do sorc damage." Please cite a single example where I ever stated such utter nonsense please. Because I am about to go back and state multiple examples where I am arguing that the Magus class does not need sorc level damage, but to make up for the damage discrepancy, they should have as much more utility than a sorc than a sorc has more damage.

Simply put, you do not at all, understand what I am writing. You clearly proved that by your last post. You misunderstand what I write, and then act all self-righteous about it. Good job.

But please, I'm waiting for you to prove your arguments. Cite where I am using the term logical fallacy wrong, and please cite where I am complaining that Maguses should do sorc level damage. I'll be around and waiting for you to make an actual argument that involves at least some coherency.

For clarity reasons, I will state my main point one more time for you, hopefully using simple and clear wording so you may understand it.

Sorcs and BWs do more significantly more damage than Engies and Maguses.

This is fine, intended, and what should be.

To compensate for the fact that the Engie and Magus careers do less damage, in the name of balance and parity, they should have some other sort of benefit over Sorcs and BWs.

It is my personal opinion, that the benefit that Engies and Maguses should have over Sorcs and BWs is that they should bring more utility and CC than Sorcs and BWs.

It is my personal opinion that the damage difference between BW/Sorcs and Engie/Maguses is far greater than the Utility difference. The BW and Sorc careers are significantly ahead in burst and lethal damage deal capabilties, and as a whole the Engie/Magus are only slightly ahead on utility.

Therefore, to properly balance and make the Engie/Magus good and well-rounded classes, they have always needed increases to their utility, commensurate to the discrepancy in damage between the two sub-archetypes.

(a counter argument could be made that BWs/Sorcs could use utility nerfs instead, but I fully believe that would be the wrong approach)