WE/WH: What really went wrong

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Magusar
Posts: 135

Re: WE/WH: What really went wrong

Post#51 » Sat Apr 25, 2026 9:57 am

Sever1n wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2026 8:51 pm Show me test results from dps dok on doll pls. No shenanigans just time to kill, 3 sec burst, 1 sec burst. So i can see that crazy amount of st damage comparable to choppa/mara u talking here about.
https://radikal.host/i/b6SW4Q
No jew tali, no liniments, no buffs from mates.Average. 5 mins ago. 5 times - max burst in 3 seconds 6.9. Min - 4.5. Depend on covenant/fortress weapon procs and crits. Average lower than on my mara or choppa, but not a lot and it's very good result for healer hybrid.Btw if it compare with my dps WP it's a 4-5.5k 3s burst.
Drukar Netherlord
SL 89
WH 88
Marauder 85
Sorc 85
Eng 82
WL 83
Chop 86

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Magusar
Posts: 135

Re: WE/WH: What really went wrong

Post#52 » Sat Apr 25, 2026 11:33 am

By the way, the OP is right in many ways.
WE > than others in most type of content(solo, roam, group play wtf). Im totally fine with that WH/WE is the best in 1 vs X and roam, but do it with your risky builds - you are doing mistakes - you are dieng, easy logic. Or at least your target out. Not def/regen builds where you can absorb 8 dps iterations of your oppontent's rotation and kill it by smashing 3-4 buttons/easy out of fight. It's best dps dealer in the game for non wb play for a long time-most on Ror since Torq's rework started to touch it 2018-2019 to ours days - was short time after dps WP/DOK rework(they were dps skeleton (+ wl for order) in party after this), than after mdps path here we go again - top of the top again.

WH - not the WE but also have absurd Atoenment tactic,which makes it practically unprofitable in other builds for smallscale, if we will compare with others WH builds (let's be honest, they are weak), yes you can play with excom but gameplay which based more than 50% around 4 morale(no matter what lvl of morale) isn't good. In total you have ST Bal build and AOE DG build - thats all.
For me, the biggest gripe with the WH rework is that devs didn't solve the problems that, given the WH/WE archetype, it shouldn't have, but give one absurd strong thing.
The main issue - WH is not autonomous - this dude/dudegirl can't work good with armor and have issues with finishers considering that it specializes in them - this is hinted at by the bullet mechanics. EW - all or nothing ability, which close to full depends on crit, but WH crit tactic for BAL and Absolution - why this crit tactic not for EW and, for example, 25% armorpenetration for it,instead 25% crit for BAL and absolution? BAL - in this path you also don't have good armorpenetration tools, why not tactic like "BAL and absolution is now dealing spirit(if you want to have combo with SM or AM)/corporeal(if you want to bust importance of corporeal for des)". Stabilized BAL damage for squishes targets, gave tool for working with armor at same time, and lower random for EW and also armorpenetration tool. All 3 path have tools for armor, all finishers are working. Also that Unyilding Conviction tactic - mb mirror it with WE's Swift movements tactic? But instead ws and ini, it's str and toughness?

WH/WE - some people in this thread want to take away their tools that allow them to be effective on their own, without outside help, which I think is wrong. WE should in my opinion nerf 2x pounce and(1 will be normal) and 90% of WB damage should to be depended on str and mpower (no dps stats? hello 50 damage from WB), mb not hard nerf SS-not 100% armorignore-mb 75-80% woulb be good, and 100% fix that absorb tactic . WH - small rethinking for 2 and 3 paths, nerf excom if fix Inqusitor's path like above.

High risk, high reward - went out the door for bread and didn't come back. SL/Choppa in vacuum good dps if we will not compare them with ohters Kappa.Their damage and utility are quite comparable to the rest, but the survability not. Why - I won't write, because topic not about this. In short, they don't justify themselves.
About BW/Sorc - nothing write also - it's just a garbage in 80-90% type of game content. Risky, greedy for resources, "easy to learn, hard to master", noneffective- ungrateful.

WL - not bad, but this pet with IQ of chair still annoying - I see the solution to this problem in removing the "Speed ​​Training" tactic, increase base pet's speed 50% and nerfing Fetch - place it in top of Axeman path instead of Thin the heard(shoulb be core after this) and usable it only from rear. Also furious mending tactic, better if it will not heal party and wl for itself, better it would make pet immune for damage 10-15 sec after using Nature's bond. My opinion.

After we have very good tank rework(only bg underdog), not bad healer patch(zealot/rp their ritual/rune radius should be back, snb wp/dok rethiking), we have very controversial mdps patch. Only mara is absolutely good. Let others be like mara. It's cool.
Last edited by Magusar on Sat Apr 25, 2026 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Drukar Netherlord
SL 89
WH 88
Marauder 85
Sorc 85
Eng 82
WL 83
Chop 86

User avatar
Sever1n
Posts: 582

Re: WE/WH: What really went wrong

Post#53 » Sat Apr 25, 2026 12:02 pm

Magusar wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2026 9:57 am
Sever1n wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2026 8:51 pm Show me test results from dps dok on doll pls. No shenanigans just time to kill, 3 sec burst, 1 sec burst. So i can see that crazy amount of st damage comparable to choppa/mara u talking here about.
https://radikal.host/i/b6SW4Q
No jew tali, no liniments, no buffs from mates.Average. 5 mins ago. 5 times - max burst in 3 seconds 6.9. Min - 4.5. Depend on covenant/fortress weapon procs and crits. Average lower than on my mara or choppa, but not a lot and it's very good result for healer hybrid.Btw if it compare with my dps WP it's a 4-5.5k 3s burst.
Weird, 6.9 is really high for no lini and tali. Can u share rotation and build? Will try to recreate it. I have big portion of damage hard mitigated by armor and tough of doll, and dont see ways to balance stats so dok wont became 7k hp glass. This link doesnt work for me, sadly. Also expected wp to be lot stronger, and your results really contradicting what i expirienced in sc/rvr.
Noximilien - AM, Severi - SM, Ravandin - SW, Celebor - WL, Ernwald - WH, Demandred - BG, Mesana - Sork, Beliar - DoK.

lumpi33
Posts: 495

Re: WE/WH: What really went wrong

Post#54 » Sat Apr 25, 2026 12:04 pm

Magusar wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2026 11:33 am WE need in my opinion nerf 2x pounce and(1 will be normal)
Hell no. The pounce has to go and I tell you why.

They are stealthers and have the ability to choose when to open on a target. This gives them the power of surprise, plus they have a 3s knock down, heal debuffs, high damage, dagger snare, break root, disappear with speed, disrupts, armor pierce, stagger and a m1 moral that gives them immunity against ranged attacks.

This crazy toolkit gives them everything and more to overcome any ranged dps in 1:1 when played right or just disappear.

The pounce is just too much. It is not only a gap closer but also an escape tool from assist trains or a tool to overcome terrains by jumping up where you can't walk.

Beside that the pounce was in WAR a unique WL ability. Now order has 1 class with pounce and destro has 2 with WE and mSHs. What makes that even more crazy is that the destro classes with pounce have also a self knock back. So they can jump in and out. The WL can't do that without having another pouncable target nearby. They have to commit. WHs didn't get that pounce either.

Im a bit sick of getting all the cool stuff mirrored to the destro side and in return getting nothing back, like the zealot wind or SHs bubble remove or gits run away, maras aoe kd, choppas pull or whatever. They have a lot more powerful uniques than order. Then look at order. Both ranged kds of BWs and SWs nerfed and put deep in the tree or behind pre-requirements. Slayers rampage nerfed down while destro tanks could keep their shield channels, WL damage nerfed down to mara damage while they still have to rely on their buggy pet and a weaker toolkit. I play destro as well and there is so much crying going on the public chats... I don't see that on order side that much. In the end it seemed to have worked well for them...

So again, hell no to that WE pounce.
Last edited by lumpi33 on Sat Apr 25, 2026 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
georgehabadasher
Posts: 368

Re: WE/WH: What really went wrong

Post#55 » Sat Apr 25, 2026 12:10 pm

BTW, almost all DPS knockdowns were 2s on live, and tank KDs were 3s. Not sure why that was changed here.

lumpi33
Posts: 495

Re: WE/WH: What really went wrong

Post#56 » Sat Apr 25, 2026 12:22 pm

georgehabadasher wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2026 12:10 pm BTW, almost all DPS knockdowns were 2s on live, and tank KDs were 3s. Not sure why that was changed here.
You can't compare RoR with live. Ranged DPS doesn't have their 100% damage boost moral here, the aoe is much weaker and a lot of them cannot be stacked. Stealthers got instant disappear with speed and so on and so forth. It's a whole different game now.

When you kd a stealther here you have 0.5s to do damage after the gcd to do damage before they just disappear.

User avatar
Magusar
Posts: 135

Re: WE/WH: What really went wrong

Post#57 » Sat Apr 25, 2026 12:27 pm

Sever1n wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2026 12:02 pm
Magusar wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2026 9:57 am
Sever1n wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2026 8:51 pm Show me test results from dps dok on doll pls. No shenanigans just time to kill, 3 sec burst, 1 sec burst. So i can see that crazy amount of st damage comparable to choppa/mara u talking here about.
https://radikal.host/i/b6SW4Q
No jew tali, no liniments, no buffs from mates.Average. 5 mins ago. 5 times - max burst in 3 seconds 6.9. Min - 4.5. Depend on covenant/fortress weapon procs and crits. Average lower than on my mara or choppa, but not a lot and it's very good result for healer hybrid.Btw if it compare with my dps WP it's a 4-5.5k 3s burst.
Weird, 6.9 is really high for no lini and tali. Can u share rotation and build? Will try to recreate it. I have big portion of damage hard mitigated by armor and tough of doll, and dont see ways to balance stats so dok wont became 7k hp glass. This link doesnt work for me, sadly. Also expected wp to be lot stronger, and your results really contradicting what i expirienced in sc/rvr.
https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/r ... ;0;4;0;0;0
https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 2,9588,585
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 912/armory
Drukar Netherlord
SL 89
WH 88
Marauder 85
Sorc 85
Eng 82
WL 83
Chop 86

Narfii
Posts: 39

Re: WE/WH: What really went wrong

Post#58 » Sat Apr 25, 2026 12:29 pm

georgehabadasher wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2026 12:10 pm BTW, almost all DPS knockdowns were 2s on live, and tank KDs were 3s. Not sure why that was changed here.
Diminishing returns instead of crazy long immunities would be great.

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Baaldr
Posts: 86

Re: WE/WH: What really went wrong

Post#59 » Sat Apr 25, 2026 12:30 pm

Magusar wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2026 11:33 am By the way, the OP is right in many ways.
WE > than others in most type of content(solo, roam, group play wtf). Im totally fine with that WH/WE is the best in 1 vs X and roam, but do it with your risky builds - you are doing mistakes - you are dieng, easy logic. Or at least your target out. Not def/regen builds where you can absorb 8 dps iterations of your oppontent's rotation and kill it by smashing 3-4 buttons/easy out of fight. It's best dps dealer in the game for non wb play for a long time-most on Ror since Torq's rework started to touch it 2018-2019 to ours days - was short time after dps WP/DOK rework(they were dps skeleton (+ wl for order) in party after this), than after mdps path here we go again - top of the top again.

WH - not the WE but also have absurd Atoenment tactic,which makes it practically unprofitable in other builds for smallscale, if we will compare with others WH builds (let's be honest, they are weak), yes you can play with excom but gameplay which based more than 50% around 4 morale(no matter what lvl of morale) isn't good. In total you have ST Bal build and AOE DG build - thats all.
For me, the biggest gripe with the WH rework is that devs didn't solve the problems that, given the WH/WE archetype, it shouldn't have, but give one absurd strong thing.
The main issue - WH is not autonomous - this dude/dudegirl can't work good with armor and have issues with finishers considering that it specializes in them - this is hinted at by the bullet mechanics. EW - all or nothing ability, which close to full depends on crit, but WH crit tactic for BAL and Absolution - why this crit tactic not for EW and, for example, 25% armorpenetration for it,instead 25% crit for BAL and absolution? BAL - in this path you also don't have good armorpenetration tools, why not tactic like "BAL and absolution is now dealing spirit(if you want to have combo with SM or AM)/corporeal(if you want to bust importance of corporeal for des)". Stabilized BAL damage for squishes targets, gave tool for working with armor at same time, and lower random for EW and also armorpenetration tool. All 3 path have tools for armor, all finishers are working. Also that Unyilding Conviction tactic - mb mirror it with WE's Swift movements tactic? But instead ws and ini, it's str and toughness?

WH/WE - some people in this thread want to take away their tools that allow them to be effective on their own, without outside help, which I think is wrong. WE should in my opinion nerf 2x pounce and(1 will be normal) and 90% of WB damage should to be depended on str and mpower (no dps stats? hello 50 damage from WB), mb not hard nerf SS-not 100% armorignore-mb 75-80% woulb be good, and 100% fix that absorb tactic . WH - small rethinking for 2 and 3 paths, nerf excom if fix Inqusitor's path like above.

High risk, high reward - went out the door for bread and didn't come back. SL/Choppa in vacuum good dps if we will not compare them with ohters Kappa.Their damage and utility are quite comparable to the rest, but the survability not. Why - I won't write, because topic not about this. In short, they don't justify themselves.
About BW/Sorc - nothing write also - it's just a garbage in 80-90% type of game content. Risky, greedy for resources, "easy to learn, hard to master", noneffective- ungrateful.

WL - not bad, but this pet with IQ of chair still annoying - I see the solution to this problem in removing the "Speed ​​Training" tactic, increase base pet's speed 50% and nerfing Fetch - place it in top of Axeman path instead of Thin the heard(shoulb be core after this) and usable it only from rear. Also furious mending tactic, better if it will not heal party and wl for itself, better it would make pet immune for damage 10-15 sec after using Nature's bond. My opinion.

After we have very good tank rework(only bg underdog), not bad healer patch(zealot/rp their ritual/rune radius should be back, snb wp/dok rethiking), we have very controversial mdps patch. Only mara is absolutely good. Let others be like mara. It's cool.
Very good post

User avatar
Sever1n
Posts: 582

Re: WE/WH: What really went wrong

Post#60 » Sat Apr 25, 2026 1:00 pm

Yes, finally normal look at we/wh in long time.
Noximilien - AM, Severi - SM, Ravandin - SW, Celebor - WL, Ernwald - WH, Demandred - BG, Mesana - Sork, Beliar - DoK.

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