Return of Reckoning

I’m a new zealot player so my knowledge of the game is a bit limited, but I will say the changes to zealot seem pretty concerning. The rituals were basically the only thing unique I brought to the wb. Other healers seem to do the straight healing part better. These changes seem to make my rituals into a short situational buff, and I don’t see anything new that gives me a unique contribution over other healers. Not sure why one would play zealot heals anymore over DoK or shaman. I’m enjoying the game though. I guess we’ll wait and see.

Zxul wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:17 pm *Changer's Echo - New ability at 13 pts in Path of Witchcraft: Hex. 30 AP. 100 ft range. Instant. 5s CD. - You Hex your target, they will suffer (248 + 1.5*DB) Corporeal damage after 5 seconds. This damage is increased by 25% if your target is affected by Warp Reality.

Just decided to go check database on Tzeench's Cry dmg- the lowest dmg zealot single target ability which is only used for something to throw on the run, since dmg sucks that much.



So the new zealot 13 points ability that "been made to increase the single target capabilities of the Zealot" has even worse base dmg than a free zealot ability that is instant, unlike the new ability, and which already has a lowest dmg out of zealot abilities. And if you dot the target before, the dmg just might scale up to close to Scourge, another free zealot ability which also unlike the new 13 points one doesn't has a cd.

Tzeentch's Cry scaling is 262 + 1.5*DB


To view the correct scaling you need to put the offensive stat to 500 and then divide the resulting scaling by 100.

Changer's Echo is also an instant ability as stated in the description you linked. Same scaling and cast-type as Tzeentch's Cry.
Its damage might be better or worse depending on mastery tree point allocation (equal at 11 points in Alchemy tree and 13 points in Witchcraft tree)

Scourge has a better scaling that comes at the cost of 2 s casttime:

Changer's Echo when buffed by Warp Reality comes close to that in damage:

(base damage is equal at 3 points in Alchemy tree and 13 points in Witchcraft tree)

It basically is another Tzeench's Cry that has better scaling if you got Warp Reality up on the target. Not sure how potent it will be in practise, but it seems to me like a good option when you want to kite.

Zxul wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:17 pm And you get this in exchange for only 66% nerf to rituals, and general nerf to dmg. Finally, this is the fix that dps zealots were waiting for all those years.

I'm curious where the 66% nerf figure came from. The duration certainly does not exclusively impact how good the ritual is. The Absorb ritual for example went from a 20% proc on being hit to granting a guarranteed absorb shield and a small heal on top. The Ritual of Lunacy now can also boost your damage by providing magic crit%. Moreover, the Waves of Chaos tactic was significantly buffed if you choose to spec for it.
Not arguing that it is an overall buff in all circumstances, but viewing the changes as pure nerfs seems like an overreaction to me.

leftayparxoun wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:32 pm

Zxul wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:17 pm *Changer's Echo - New ability at 13 pts in Path of Witchcraft: Hex. 30 AP. 100 ft range. Instant. 5s CD. - You Hex your target, they will suffer (248 + 1.5*DB) Corporeal damage after 5 seconds. This damage is increased by 25% if your target is affected by Warp Reality.

Just decided to go check database on Tzeench's Cry dmg- the lowest dmg zealot single target ability which is only used for something to throw on the run, since dmg sucks that much.



So the new zealot 13 points ability that "been made to increase the single target capabilities of the Zealot" has even worse base dmg than a free zealot ability that is instant, unlike the new ability, and which already has a lowest dmg out of zealot abilities. And if you dot the target before, the dmg just might scale up to close to Scourge, another free zealot ability which also unlike the new 13 points one doesn't has a cd.

Tzeentch's Cry scaling is 262 + 1.5*DB


To view the correct scaling you need to put the offensive stat to 500 and then divide the resulting scaling by 100.

Changer's Echo is also an instant ability as stated in the description you linked. Same scaling and cast-type as Tzeentch's Cry.
Its damage might be better or worse depending on mastery tree point allocation (equal at 11 points in Alchemy tree and 13 points in Witchcraft tree)

Scourge has a better scaling that comes at the cost of 2 s casttime:

Changer's Echo when buffed by Warp Reality comes close to that in damage:

(base damage is equal at 3 points in Alchemy tree and 13 points in Witchcraft tree)

It basically is another Tzeench's Cry that has better scaling if you got Warp Reality up on the target. Not sure how potent it will be in practise, but it seems to me like a good option when you want to kite.

So a long wall of text to say exactly what I said- that zealot got a new 13 points ability, that is worse than already existing worst dmg zealot single target ability (at least Tzeentch's Cry is instant dmg without a 5 sec delay), and that if you dot the target before just might do a worst dmg than another free ability without a CD.

And also great, so now zealot has to invest 13 points into a tree, just to regain the kiting ability which he previously had for free with instant Scourge tactic.

What a great zealot dps patch, as I said this is exactly what zealots were waiting for for years now, finally it is here!

leftayparxoun wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:32 pm

Zxul wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:17 pm And you get this in exchange for only 66% nerf to rituals, and general nerf to dmg. Finally, this is the fix that dps zealots were waiting for all those years.

I'm curious where the 66% nerf figure came from. The duration certainly does not exclusively impact how good the ritual is. The Absorb ritual for example went from a 20% proc on being hit to granting a guarranteed absorb shield and a small heal on top. The Ritual of Lunacy now can also boost your damage by providing magic crit%. Moreover, the Waves of Chaos tactic was significantly buffed if you choose to spec for it.
Not arguing that it is an overall buff in all circumstances, but viewing the changes as pure nerfs seems like an overreaction to me.

The absorb ritual went from 487 absorb for 30 sec, to 375 absorb for 10 sec. With a minor heal on top. Perhaps I'm somehow missing something about kindergarten level math, but yep it seems very much like a 66% nerf. 20% proc is good enough, when you calculate how many times in 2 sec say wh with aa haste, or even better a wl with pet, hits you.

The ritual of lunacy went from 30 sec duration 3 sec tick triggering all heal procs, to 10 sec duration 5 sec tick. Again, how could I miss what a great buff to ability it is?

The Waves of Chaos went from constant to 10 sec out of every 30 sec, since non in his right mind will take more than 1 ritual.

Viewing the changes as pure nerfs is not an overreaction, its underreaction.

Zxul wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:10 pm So a long wall of text to say exactly what I said- that zealot got a new 13 points ability, that is worse than already existing worst dmg zealot single target ability (at least Tzeentch's Cry is instant dmg without a 5 sec delay), and that if you dot the target before just might do a worst dmg than another free ability without a CD.

Once again. The damage of Changer's Echo will always be better than Tzeentch's Cry unless you decide to put 12 or more points in left Tree.
The delayed damage can be an issue, yes, but it can also be a big advantage when trying to timestamp big damage (see World of Pain for Sorc).

E.g. Changer's Echo (0 s) > Warp Reality (1.5 s) > Scourge (3 s) > Tzeentch's Cry (5s)
Warp Reality will hit at 4.5 s and Changer's Echo, Scourge and Tzeentch's Cry will all hit around 5 seconds resulting in a significant burst window.

Zxul wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:10 pm The absorb ritual went from 487 absorb for 30 sec, to 375 absorb for 10 sec. With a minor heal on top. Perhaps I'm somehow missing something about kindergarten level math, but yep it seems very much like a 66% nerf. 20% proc is good enough, when you calculate how many times in 2 sec say wh with aa haste, or even better a wl with pet, hits you.

Let's ignore the new heal component completely and even assume that you will always proc the shield on the first hit you take (more on that soon).
The abosrb shield itself scales with (30 + Mastery Lvl)/45 at level 40 in both cases.
Due to both versons having the same scaling, the damage loss will be:
(Base_old - Base_new)/Base_old * 100% = 22.9% less absorb with the above assumptions.
Again, not sure where the 66% came from.

As for the perma uptime assumption, the old version procs on being hit and has an internal cooldown (ICD) of 2 seconds.
This means that the number of attacks you take during those 2 seconds is irrelevant. They will NOT be able to refresh the proc until those 2 seconds are up. In turn, this means that after the ICD is over, every attack will have exactly 20% to proc it. Even if we were to assume you are getting hit e.g. 5 times in a second when it comes up as you mentione, this means that you have:
- 80% chance to not have procced it after the 1st attack
- 64% chance to not have procced it after the 2st attack
- 51.2% chance to not have procced it after the 3rd attack
- 40.1% chance to not have procced it after the 4th attack
- 32.8% chance to not have procced it after the 5th attack

As you can hopefully agree on, the old version is quite unreliable even under ideal conditions to proc it when the ICD is up. The time wasted by the old version not proccing is way more significant than the new version with perma uptime but 23% less potency. Or at the very least the shield effectiveness will be comparable.
And now you also get 3 small heals on top.

Zxul wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:10 pm The Waves of Chaos went from constant to 10 sec out of every 30 sec, since non in his right mind will take more than 1 ritual.

This made me laugh, not gonna lie. I don't forsee anyone running less than 2 Rituals/Runes, especially in heal builds. Anything else would be underutilizing the class mechanics and then complaining about it.

WP 2h DPS CHANGE My Thought

I really like the shield change but the 2h dps had great ideas but need some rework.

-Losing alot of dmg from guilty soul 20% dmg + 20% auto attack dmg + 25% armor pen -reduce 5 seconds cooldown
-Gaining new Divine Impact but need rework
-Cool rework on alot of stuff (range ability dont require rf, Bludgeon dont need to be behind for armor pen etc)
-Aoe detaunt can be good but we even harder to deal with range doing dmg on us.
bla bla you guys saw the patch takes no genius when you test it out to see what dont work and works

Soo my ideas on some change
1-------------------------------- Basic but some people want that
Keep all the old stuff from wrath like it used to be but keep middle and left tree like it is (shield and book)
Maybe just change the tactic instead of haste you get the new ones.
----------------------------------
2 Rework all the stuff

(Hammer of sigmar) An iconic ability
1-Keep the hammer of sigmar like it used (50%,alwas crit etc)
Or just change the resource like it. but alwas crit and make it 5 seconds cooldown. (bring back the Explosion animation)
-Spamming HOS aint that fun and no strategy really around it use too much resource.

(Guilty soul)
1-The old one (what we got right now)
2- Keep the same but add 30% haste aa or auto attack dmg increase (10%,20%,30% 3 dots)
3-Same but add the heal component of the dmg (like live)Like that you can use your resource to use wrath abilities and help with heals a bit.

(Divine Impact) I would suggest to use the Sigmar radiance animation since 2h dont have it instead of the divine strike one.
It also need to hit harder if it stays 2 seconds to cast in MELEE.
1- reduce duration to 1 or just make it instant but 15-20 second cooldown

2-When used you also get somekind of buff or utility
ideas -for 10 seconds 20% faster running speed (some kind of speed buff)
-Aoe Knockdown or Single target knockdown
-Spirit debuff or other kind of debuff like purge (shattering a buff)

3- Remove the ability? Aint really needed already got plenty of abilities.

leftayparxoun wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:51 pm

Zxul wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:10 pm So a long wall of text to say exactly what I said- that zealot got a new 13 points ability, that is worse than already existing worst dmg zealot single target ability (at least Tzeentch's Cry is instant dmg without a 5 sec delay), and that if you dot the target before just might do a worst dmg than another free ability without a CD.

Once again. The damage of Changer's Echo will always be better than Tzeentch's Cry unless you decide to put 12 or more points in left Tree.
The delayed damage can be an issue, yes, but it can also be a big advantage when trying to timestamp big damage (see World of Pain for Sorc).

E.g. Changer's Echo (0 s) > Warp Reality (1.5 s) > Scourge (3 s) > Tzeentch's Cry (5s)
Warp Reality will hit at 4.5 s and Changer's Echo, Scourge and Tzeentch's Cry will all hit around 5 seconds resulting in a significant burst window.

So here is how the zealot dmg actually looks like, from someone who actually plays zealot, instead of spamming math to pretend that he knows what is he talking about. 843 intel, 27 magic power:



Warp Reality will hit for 300 after mitigation at best, Changer's Echo for say another 500- lets be optimistic, Scourge for 600, Tzeentch's Cry for another 400. So you just set up all that for that nice 1800 burst window. 2550 or so if everything crits, by some miracle, since zealot has no tactics to increase crit dmg. Obviously that is without guard, which would cut that in half.

Have you considered not posting about things that you have no clue about?

leftayparxoun wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:51 pm

Zxul wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:10 pm The absorb ritual went from 487 absorb for 30 sec, to 375 absorb for 10 sec. With a minor heal on top. Perhaps I'm somehow missing something about kindergarten level math, but yep it seems very much like a 66% nerf. 20% proc is good enough, when you calculate how many times in 2 sec say wh with aa haste, or even better a wl with pet, hits you.

Let's ignore the new heal component completely and even assume that you will always proc the shield on the first hit you take (more on that soon).
The abosrb shield itself scales with (30 + Mastery Lvl)/45 at level 40 in both cases.
Due to both versons having the same scaling, the damage loss will be:
(Base_old - Base_new)/Base_old * 100% = 22.9% less absorb with the above assumptions.
Again, not sure where the 66% came from.

As for the perma uptime assumption, the old version procs on being hit and has an internal cooldown (ICD) of 2 seconds.
This means that the number of attacks you take during those 2 seconds is irrelevant. They will NOT be able to refresh the proc until those 2 seconds are up. In turn, this means that after the ICD is over, every attack will have exactly 20% to proc it. Even if we were to assume you are getting hit e.g. 5 times in a second when it comes up as you mentione, this means that you have:
- 80% chance to not have procced it after the 1st attack
- 64% chance to not have procced it after the 2st attack
- 51.2% chance to not have procced it after the 3rd attack
- 40.1% chance to not have procced it after the 4th attack
- 32.8% chance to not have procced it after the 5th attack

As you can hopefully agree on, the old version is quite unreliable even under ideal conditions to proc it when the ICD is up. The time wasted by the old version not proccing is way more significant than the new version with perma uptime but 23% less potency. Or at the very least the shield effectiveness will be comparable.
And now you also get 3 small heals on top.

Now lets go back to the real world. Add another wl or wh, since for some strange reason they like to roam in pairs, and remake the calculations.

leftayparxoun wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:51 pm

Zxul wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:10 pm The Waves of Chaos went from constant to 10 sec out of every 30 sec, since non in his right mind will take more than 1 ritual.

This made me laugh, not gonna lie. I don't forsee anyone running less than 2 Rituals/Runes, especially in heal builds. Anything else would be underutilizing the class mechanics and then complaining about it.

As someone who actually plays zealot, unlike someone who has no idea about the class but still posts giant walls of text, yep like I said non in his right mind will take more than 1 ritual. Non is going to spec according to "hey, I might use this ritual eventually sometime"- either that specific ritual fits the spec, or you got a better things to waste the mastery point and the gcd on.

What's was the goal with the ritual/master runes? They're all 30 sec CD with a 10 sec uptime. There's no strategy involved, you just have to twist them for the additional healing. I really don't get it.

Zxul wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:34 pm

leftayparxoun wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:51 pm

Zxul wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:10 pm So a long wall of text to say exactly what I said- that zealot got a new 13 points ability, that is worse than already existing worst dmg zealot single target ability (at least Tzeentch's Cry is instant dmg without a 5 sec delay), and that if you dot the target before just might do a worst dmg than another free ability without a CD.

Once again. The damage of Changer's Echo will always be better than Tzeentch's Cry unless you decide to put 12 or more points in left Tree.
The delayed damage can be an issue, yes, but it can also be a big advantage when trying to timestamp big damage (see World of Pain for Sorc).

E.g. Changer's Echo (0 s) > Warp Reality (1.5 s) > Scourge (3 s) > Tzeentch's Cry (5s)
Warp Reality will hit at 4.5 s and Changer's Echo, Scourge and Tzeentch's Cry will all hit around 5 seconds resulting in a significant burst window.

So here is how the zealot dmg actually looks like, from someone who actually plays zealot, instead of spamming math to pretend that he knows what is he talking about. 843 intel, 27 magic power:



Warp Reality will hit for 300 after mitigation at best, Changer's Echo for say another 500- lets be optimistic, Scourge for 600, Tzeentch's Cry for another 400. So you just set up all that for that nice 1800 burst window. 2550 or so if everything crits, by some miracle, since zealot has no tactics to increase crit dmg. Obviously that is without guard, which would cut that in half.

Have you considered not posting about things that you have no clue about?

leftayparxoun wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:51 pm

Zxul wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:10 pm The absorb ritual went from 487 absorb for 30 sec, to 375 absorb for 10 sec. With a minor heal on top. Perhaps I'm somehow missing something about kindergarten level math, but yep it seems very much like a 66% nerf. 20% proc is good enough, when you calculate how many times in 2 sec say wh with aa haste, or even better a wl with pet, hits you.

Let's ignore the new heal component completely and even assume that you will always proc the shield on the first hit you take (more on that soon).
The abosrb shield itself scales with (30 + Mastery Lvl)/45 at level 40 in both cases.
Due to both versons having the same scaling, the damage loss will be:
(Base_old - Base_new)/Base_old * 100% = 22.9% less absorb with the above assumptions.
Again, not sure where the 66% came from.

As for the perma uptime assumption, the old version procs on being hit and has an internal cooldown (ICD) of 2 seconds.
This means that the number of attacks you take during those 2 seconds is irrelevant. They will NOT be able to refresh the proc until those 2 seconds are up. In turn, this means that after the ICD is over, every attack will have exactly 20% to proc it. Even if we were to assume you are getting hit e.g. 5 times in a second when it comes up as you mentione, this means that you have:
- 80% chance to not have procced it after the 1st attack
- 64% chance to not have procced it after the 2st attack
- 51.2% chance to not have procced it after the 3rd attack
- 40.1% chance to not have procced it after the 4th attack
- 32.8% chance to not have procced it after the 5th attack

As you can hopefully agree on, the old version is quite unreliable even under ideal conditions to proc it when the ICD is up. The time wasted by the old version not proccing is way more significant than the new version with perma uptime but 23% less potency. Or at the very least the shield effectiveness will be comparable.
And now you also get 3 small heals on top.

Now lets go back to the real world. Add another wl or wh, since for some strange reason they like to roam in pairs, and remake the calculations.

leftayparxoun wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:51 pm

Zxul wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:10 pm The Waves of Chaos went from constant to 10 sec out of every 30 sec, since non in his right mind will take more than 1 ritual.

This made me laugh, not gonna lie. I don't forsee anyone running less than 2 Rituals/Runes, especially in heal builds. Anything else would be underutilizing the class mechanics and then complaining about it.

As someone who actually plays zealot, unlike someone who has no idea about the class but still posts giant walls of text, yep like I said non in his right mind will take more than 1 ritual. Non is going to spec according to "hey, I might use this ritual eventually sometime"- either that specific ritual fits the spec, or you got a better things to waste the mastery point and the gcd on.

What I don’t understand is why Zxul seems to more often than not post insulting remarks and belittling people who simply have a different opinion. It is better to focus on being constructive and helpful with your own point of view without putting Leftay down, a person who does a lot to help the community. Mean people suck, don’t be a mean person

tazdingo wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:57 pm What's was the goal with the ritual/master runes? They're all 30 sec CD with a 10 sec uptime. There's no strategy involved, you just have to twist them for the additional healing. I really don't get it.

Its actually lot worse than that. Currently zealot party healing is based on heal ritual being constantly up and proccing Trzeench's Grip, Blessing of Chaos, etc. With this change not only there won't be a way to realistically keep a heal ritual constantly up, but even if the zealot sacrifices all other abilities to take 3 rituals from 3 trees, its still only 1 tick per 5 sec, instead of 1 per 3. Once the patch goes live, expect mass heal zealot reroll to shams/ doks, if their new heal mechanics actually work.

Paxsanarion wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 6:16 pm What I don’t understand is why Zxul seems to more often than not post insulting remarks and belittling people who simply have a different opinion. It is better to focus on being constructive and helpful with your own point of view without putting Leftay down, a person who does a lot to help the community. Mean people suck, don’t be a mean person

I have no problem with a different opinions, however when someone posts opinion about something which he clearly has no idea about, and then keeps insisting, he gets an according answer.