Return of Reckoning

Caduceus wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 6:04 am Again, the culprit behind this problem is simple to spot. For some strange reason healers don't have to invest in their primary stat. I've never heard a credible reason for why it should be that way.

Here is the thing- they do, as someone having a zealot I can guarantee you that zealot with will converted to intel doesn't heals all that much. Its that RoR is a pvp game, so the tactic of having the tanks holding the agro while healers go full glass cannon heal just doesn't works- for some strange reason players seem to like attacking tanks the last. Healers in RoR investing in def stats instead of going full heal is not because of their primary stat not increasing healing- it very much does, its because glass cannon healer= dead healer, and being dead for some reason seems to decrease heals by much more than keeping will at 700 and investing in def stats.

Faction69 wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 10:07 pm It's not about "trust" it's about literally looking at the tools given to you in this game. You have 1 cc of 2 types every 30 seconds per target and a few classes have interrupts that don't even lock out. Aside from that it's snares and raw healing/mitigation vs damage output, about as much of a button mash fest as a tab target pvp game could possibly be. Not sure how you can invoke WoW given that even the abberation that is WoW retail has about 50000x more depth and mechanical skill to it than WAR ever had.

And this server obviously has way more than 1000 players, and everyone on it pvps. Ranked was added by the RoR devs and if you're seriously saying that it needs to be balanced around or is at all indicative of anything of any value to the vast majority of the playerbase then you are clearly very disconnected from the reality of why people play this game in the first place, which is orvr. This is a game with relatively bad gameplay that's heavily limiting on player skill, but compelling supporting systems, and it's always been that way.

Perhaps this truth offends you as you have convinced yourself that playing an invented gamemode on a small private server of one of the most mechanically basic tab target MMORPGs ever made makes you some of authority. No one who is seriously looking for "competitive gameplay" is looking for it here, just a tiny minority of people who at most want to feel like a big fish in a small pond. Everyone else is here because they like the IP/orvr and are willing to put up with the flaws for it.

Based on your post, I would not describe myself as the one offended.

First of all, there's a ton of soft control such as Guard and Challenge (65% damage reduction) without CC and crucial debuffs such as -50% incoming healing and huge armor & toughness reductions. It's very far from a basic Tab target MMO, simply because Tab is pretty awful in this game, unlike WoW, and some classes such as melee and Tanks need to be able to interact with 4-5 people in front of them at any time, so click targetting or creative movement and use of multiple target keybinds is needed.

Do I think 6v6 is necessarily the peak way to balance? No one brought this up but you did so I'll answer it. 6v6 has a very limited toolset (you only have 6 players) so things that are broken or blatantly over or underpowered in a normal group setting are highlighted brightly in 6v6. Compound that with a lot of recorded stats (thanks to the "useless" and "dead" game mode) and the fact that these builds are being piloted by some of the best players on the server, you end up with VERY useful information for balance. Not always relevant to all facets of the game, but very useful.

Don't take that as me speaking for the people who do work on balance. That's not me. I know some of them and speak with them but I have no idea why they do some of the things they do. I guess a new player might assume that the 2H reworks for Borc and SM were intended for 6v6, which is sort of true, because 2H is generally a small-scale thing on RoR as Shield builds tend to be much more useful for large-scale. On the other hand, ID getting fixed was not friendly at all towards small-scale or mid-scale play.

If you have convinced yourself that some of these players aren't good because they 6v6, I encourage you to fight them in any other PvP content and record the results.

So yes, it is about trust. People generally trust me because I play and understand the game while also sharing my thoughts and views, hearing those of others and then developing new thoughts & views. The stuff you are talking about.. I'm sorry but it barely makes sense and you seem to have a very limited knowledge of the game.

If your concept of skill is "Memorizing CC DR's and tracking cooldowns", then you aren't far off, but that's not RoR, there's different data that you need to track and the skill expression in this game can look a lot different as it's a different game. For example. backpedaling and/or side-strafing is sometimes a very useful tactic in RoR. You're also very tied to your supports so dancing away from enemies while staying within guard range and keeping your parry cone faced at your enemies or simply staying out of their melee range is a powerful defensive strategy.

I wish you the best of luck on your journey towards skill,

Uchoo

Zxul wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 7:12 am
Here is the thing- they do, as someone having a zealot I can guarantee you that zealot with will converted to intel doesn't heals all that much. Its that RoR is a pvp game, so the tactic of having the tanks holding the agro while healers go full glass cannon heal just doesn't works- for some strange reason players seem to like attacking tanks the last. Healers in RoR investing in def stats instead of going full heal is not because of their primary stat not increasing healing- it very much does, its because glass cannon healer= dead healer, and being dead for some reason seems to decrease heals by much more than keeping will at 700 and investing in def stats.

It's no secret nor is it controversial that willpower scales very poorly.

The point is, there should be a trade-off. Healers who invest heavily in defenses should see a noticable decrease in the effectiveness of their healing.

This is for all practical purposes not the case. As a ranged healer, I don't even particularly need all those extra defenses, but an investment in willpower would simply be a waste, so why wouldn't I?

Tanks are ironically a much better target in 6v6, and frequently become the victims of target swaps. Why? First and foremost because tanks actually have to sacrifice some their tankiness if they want to spec for more damage. That is balance.
Furthermore, tanks cannot function from 150ft range, nor do they have a vast toolkit for escapes. To add insult to injury, playing a tank to a competent level is much harder than playing a ranged healer. So what gives?

There is no such balance when it comes to healers. It simply doesn't make sense on a conceptual level.

The result is the tactically stale gameplay we see.

Bozzax wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 7:11 amExceptions are mdoks and mwps that currently is a win condition in 6v6 by current dev design

Why is that / is it true? My limited experience is that they are expelled from all PvP content apart from FFA pug groups.

Just make wp to increase heal cri aswell which will increase dramatically after 900 for example and may be remove or/and lower crit from renown points so healer who choice to stack wp will have better chance to proc all on crit heal effects and bigger chance for brust healing based on more often crits.

That is how you promote wp stacking without really nerfing much (well crit from renown prolly to keep in line overall heal crit stacking)

Dps main stat has better then linear gain ... wp and heal crits at some points just turns to over heals that has 0 value

Believing wp is a main stat It is just a flawed as believing toughness is a tank main stat

The OP originally highlighted about a dozen issues with the game but all the salty e-peener dps who cant one shot a healer have focussed only on "tanky" healers.
Well i hope you get your wish and healers drop like flys and then stop playing healers. I dont play a healer.

It's challenging to observe the turmoil unfolding due to your contribution to this forum post, Caduceus. Your understanding of balance appears to lack the depth of experience needed to fully grasp the intricacies of RoR, particularly in the context of small-scale PvP. Allow me to address this in the most diplomatic manner possible:
First:

Caduceus wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 7:20 pm When talking about the tankiness of healers, I suppose we should specify whether we're talking about scenarios/6v6 or RvR/24v24.
Someone seemed to suggest that tunneling healers in 6v6 is a viable strategy - it is not, with the exception being Shield DoK/WP.

WP/DoK is a special case because they do sacrifice range for tank, making it more balanced in that regard. And in shield spec they have to sacrifice tank for more damage and healing.

The rationale behind targeting SnB Healers is primarily due to the ease of quick swapping to them while simultaneously CCing the other healer on the enemy team. However, tunneling any type of healer, whether SnB or not, remains a viable strategy, with many classes possessing powerful tools to execute it effectively. The key consideration isn't whether a healer is too tanky but rather whether the tunneling team can withstand incoming damage while being focused by enemy DPS during the tunneling process.

Second:

Caduceus wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 6:04 am It's clear that scenarios/6v6 is a big part of the balance picture for the RoR devs, so obviously it should be part of the conversation. If your stance is that RvR should be the only consideration that's fine, but that's not the stance of the devs.

Everything I said about healers in the scenario/6v6 context stands. In fact, it's probably the most relevant for small-scale and scenarios (which I'm sure we can agree is part of the overall balance picture).

There's no reason a role should get the biggest impact at the longest range ánd this type of survivability in the form of CC and tankiness.

The two simply don't mix - it's a game design flaw.

Again, the culprit behind this problem is simple to spot. For some strange reason healers don't have to invest in their primary stat. I've never heard a credible reason for why it should be that way.

I'm curious about how you're evaluating the developers' stance here. We're are still in the beginning of the process of balancing, and it's crucial to emphasize that this is an ongoing journey; there will never be a definitive "day x" where perfect balance is achieved. Regarding healers' impact in small-scale 6 vs. 6 scenarios, it's essential to recognize that healing alone has never been the sole determining factor. Particularly in the current meta, emphasis is placed on overall damage output, where SnB Healers excel. It's noteworthy that SnB healers aren't trading range for tankiness but rather for increased damage contribution and healing. This dynamic has led to the emergence of SnB DoK as a leader in the current healer meta, alongside Zealot, due to their synergy and the availability of Talon.

Third:

Caduceus wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 6:04 am Finally, the ranged healers are by far the easiest roles to play, while arguably having the greatest impact on the battlefield.

I've never heard of you, to be honest, and I don't quite understand why you would make such a bold statement. All classes have great depth in this game, and healers not being the exception nor do they have the "great" impact. A CC'ed range healers has 0 contribution to a game while the "golden sequence" unfolds.

Fourth:

Caduceus wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 7:34 am Tanks are ironically a much better target in 6v6, and frequently become the victims of target swaps. Why? First and foremost because tanks actually have to sacrifice some their tankiness if they want to spec for more damage. That is balance.
Furthermore, tanks cannot function from 150ft range, nor do they have a vast toolkit for escapes. To add insult to injury, playing a tank to a competent level is much harder than playing a ranged healer. So what gives?

There is no such balance when it comes to healers. It simply doesn't make sense on a conceptual level.

The result is the tactically stale gameplay we see.

'm curious about the extensive "toolkit" for escapes on a ranged healer, aside from M2. Additionally, I'd like to understand your perspective on what constitutes "tactically stale gameplay." Regarding this, I find it puzzling why you'd dedicate so much time to defending supposed imbalances concerning healers, especially when there's a prevailing theme that the game's damage output is excessively high. This allows groups in certain setups to tunnel down a target in CHCH, even while the guard is in range ~speaking of tactical stale gameplay.

i think healers being difficult to kill when they are heal specced is fine, its not like they can kill you in turn is it.

The only time its a problem is when they are dps specced and can heal and kill people which Shamans have been known to do but that's already been addressed since

One suggestion i would make for RVR is quite simply add a kill counter to the map - i dunno lets say 1000 frags, when completed that side flips the zone....At the moment there's alot of stalemate issues that keep happening because one side cant siege the other so it ends up with zerg vs zerg so i am simply proposing we make that zerg gameplay have a purpose.

Let the players fight until one side wins, maybe if one side has a high AAO they get 2 points per kill instead of 1, etc etc.

Aluviya wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 10:46 am It's challenging to observe the turmoil unfolding due to your contribution to this forum post, Caduceus. Your understanding of balance appears to lack the depth of experience needed to fully grasp the intricacies of RoR, particularly in the context of small-scale PvP. Allow me to address this in the most diplomatic manner possible:

Aluviya wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 10:46 am
I've never heard of you,

There's nothing diplomatic about underhanded comments like this, so you may drop the pretension or actually argue the case rather than the person.

Aluviya wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 10:46 am
I'm curious about how you're evaluating the developers' stance here. We're are still in the beginning of the process of balancing, and it's crucial to emphasize that this is an ongoing journey; there will never be a definitive "day x" where perfect balance is achieved. Regarding healers' impact in small-scale 6 vs. 6 scenarios, it's essential to recognize that healing alone has never been the sole determining factor. Particularly in the current meta, emphasis is placed on overall damage output, where SnB Healers excel. It's noteworthy that SnB healers aren't trading range for tankiness but rather for increased damage contribution and healing. This dynamic has led to the emergence of SnB DoK as a leader in the current healer meta, alongside Zealot, due to their synergy and the availability of Talon.

DoK/WP trade range for tankiness in their book/chalice spec (compared to the other ranged healers), but since book/chalice isn't particularly strong outside of warbands I left it out of the discussion.

I have no gripe with shield DoK/WP since there is a clear trade-off.

But ask yourself, why is the shield DoK so popular? Because that extra damage is needed to break through the defensive safety net, which is way too big.

That's why all emphasis is on burst and low TTK, and why the problem of low TTK is hard to tackle.

The defensive safety net being too big is a wider issue, but making healers more vulnerable provides more options to break through via positioning and tactics, which I see as desirable.

In other words, the defensive safety net needs to be restructured and there should be more options to break through. At that point, TTK can be addressed as well.

These issues are connected.

Aluviya wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 10:46 am
All classes have great depth in this game, and healers not being the exception nor do they have the "great" impact. A CC'ed range healers has 0 contribution to a game while the "golden sequence" unfolds.

I don't think it's controversial to say ranged healers are easy to play and have the greatest impact on the battle, though it should go without saying that it is a generalization.

If you are in a 6v6 and one of your teammates dies, would you rather have it be a DPS, a Tank or a Healer?

Aluviya wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 10:46 am
'm curious about the extensive "toolkit" for escapes on a ranged healer, aside from M2. Additionally, I'd like to understand your perspective on what constitutes "tactically stale gameplay." Regarding this, I find it puzzling why you'd dedicate so much time to defending supposed imbalances concerning healers, especially when there's a prevailing theme that the game's damage output is excessively high. This allows groups in certain setups to tunnel down a target in CHCH, even while the guard is in range ~speaking of tactical stale gameplay.

M2 is a big one for starters - pretty much a free escape roughly once per minute. Ontop of that, there are puddles and knockback + snare. Shammies get extra tools. Zealots and Runepriests get extremely potent lifesavers, etc.

For classes that spend most of their time at 100-150ft range where they're already hard to reach I'd say that's pretty extensive. Playing my healer is leisure time and it's baffling to me how trivial it is to negate the efforts of DPS classes and how easy it is to keep myself safe. It has always seemed plainly unfair how little effort it takes.

Let me rephrase my basic argument then: healers should be vulnerable in some way. Currently they simply are not. There's various ways one could conceivably go about this, but since the fact that healers do not have to invest in their primary stat is clearly unintuitive from a game design perspective, this seems to me like a logical avenue.


As for tactically stale gameplay - it's all about that so-called "golden sequence", isn't it? Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying it doesn't take skill. It just isn't very fun to most people to spend minutes waiting for that perfect storm.


Lastly, if setups are able to simply kill via brute force (Champion's Challenge, "tunneling", etc.), that's clearly an issue as well. One does not exclude the other.