Return of Reckoning

Jastojan wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:59 pm

retekelek wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:39 pm

Jastojan wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:25 pm
This is the best way to ask for a nerf... asking for a "buff" leads only to the nerf (here. Didnt you notice yet?).

Strongly disagree, its a purpose that we have a place for forums, and i know exatcly from where and how this nerf exaleted, nopthing to do whit this topic.

Asking for a buff will lead to nerf - it was ironic (but who knows) Yes, we have a place to discuss. We can write about things we like, we dont like etc. ... bla bla. That´s all. Devs can only laugh, because we are spending our time... What I noticed is, that devs have strange way to implement changes (big changes especially) in the game (sometimes I understand their... silence - due to hatespeech, blaming ...). But even if you think your words could be heard, they wont... your only chance is to forget the zealot if you dont like it as it is or you should choose othe class. As wargrimn wrote. And my advice to you is the same. If you dont like the zealot for its crap dmg, you should try archmage or other char. Believe me, I had same wish as you have. Zealot should be buffed a bit, because its dmg is realy realy poor and you cant do decent dps. But it is wasting of a time asking for it. How long did it take to them to "nerf" WL? How many times players wrote that WL dmg burst is sick? I know that big ST dmg burst is all what WL has and I am NOT a fun of nerfs, but it was just an example. So the best you can do if you want to enjoy the game is to choose other class you like.

Yeah but where is it leads? i start to play something else, gearing it up, having fun whit it, than it gets nerfed to useless level, than i start agian? this is mental. Also i tried out a lot of class and it had a reason i played this class the most, because i had the most fun playing whit zeal. ST lost its usefullness more than a half year ago when most damage source abilities got 15-20% nerf. and i played mostly only ST, so after that im adopted for aoe, providing less damage but more pressure whit aoe healdebuff on enemy party, but now.. no where to go jsut to start again whit an other class. Thats F up.

wargrimnir wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:20 pm
So you get to decide which part of that process you want to be involved in. Want to make cringe posts on the forum begging for buffs for your poor dying class? Better hope it strikes a chord with the people who might possibly balance it some day. Otherwise you're wasting your own time. For DPS Z/RP I would really strongly suggest looking at how some of the balance proposals are laid out, and work on that format, then kick it into the proposals section. The more vocal DPS Z/RP players here have poisoned the well of public discourse for quite a while already.

If that was addressed also forward me, than i can tell my point of view from experince. Which i already did, but whit my respect, i understand, even if you truly read tru all the posts in the forum for your free time, probably hard to put toogetherthe shards of informations from the different posts here and there.

So i try to make summary:
Dzeal AOE - After the patch its not working since it was working whit aoe healdebuffing, which got nerfed for ST only. And Woi got nerfed so u cant use other abilty while its up.
Ur burst was put down Ap ritual, put Warp Reality on ur target, use Demon Splittle to reduce target corp resistatn for ur damage than drop Winds of Insanity (if situation allowed like u dont punt ur target away from ur mele dps) and start channeling Chaotic Agitoation. This could make a decent damage, far from an actual dps burst damage but the pluss u bringed whit ur lower damage is that whit aoe damage and healdebuff u put extra pressure not just on ur main target but also on enemy party front line, forcing thier healrs to also use cleanse/healing not just on thier focused team member. In sc-s, when u can see damage, because i played aoe i was lot of time in the top, but not just once my party member Welf who got like 0 aoe damage had more overall damage than me and ofc more killing blows. So its worked kinda this way, whit a decent party setup, where classes had synergie.

The pros u bring was
- aoe healdbuff
- aoe armor debuff and corp resi which stacks whit other debuff which comes from abilites since ur comes from tatic
- morale 1 Tzeench talon for single target pressure
- WoI for offensive and deffensive purpose
- extra cleanse for help on dotted teammates to survive
- daemonic fortitude (altoguht most time u used it on urself under pressure)
- silence enemy healer or casters
- AP ritual
- zealot class mark buffs for party

The cons
- Poor damage compared to pure dps classes
- Extreamly ap hungry class
- Whitout going mele range, ur ranged abilites are joke, compared to any rdps class.
- For burst you have to go mele range as a glasscannon class. Whit the options to reach engouh intellect / disrupt strike tru / crit chance on spells, u had to go full offensive and u will be under even a sorc in deff stats wise. same geared players can nuke you under KD, thats why WoI was a must for deff purposes also.
- Demon Splittle debuff has 40ft and small cone area to hit, when enemy mele on u tring to hit u from behind while snared its extreamly hard to hit em whit it.
- WoI could be as harmfull to use as good, because u could punt away, and save the life of an enemy player from bursting it down by your teammates. U had to consider every situation before using it.

Single target, which i played a lot, was nerfed around half year pluss ago, in a patch when the Thzeench Cry, Scourge and Chaotic Agitoatin damage was set back around 15-20% because they were doing more than the tool tip showed it. Before that i played whit mara or sorc in 6man, providing the headbuff and the extra damage to kill the targets. maras could slot out healdebuff tatic going full butcher mode, whit sorc and 1 shaman healer for puddle / kiting playstyle both worked. Still its worked like im an utilty/damage class and the pure dps is the actual killer but in 6v6 1 dps simply can not make a kill happen alone.
After the setback the damage was not enough. It was already on the edge of viabality prenerf, and thats comming from actual testing after it, not just from whining.
Than i started to make aoe work, and while nitynine percent in 6v6 preamade i specced aoe, still i experinced whit ST time to time, till nowadays.

ST pros
- healdebuff
- morale 1 Tzeench talon for single target pressure
- 6sec stagger - really good for offense/deffense
- Ranged snare whit storms of ravens
- Boon of thzeecnh to do some healing but its rarely used, because of cast time / dps is poor
- over rr70 u can have absorb ritual if u got a healer zealot in party otherwise u need to use ap ritual since u still really ap hungry
- Veil of chaos - since u got some point in the three worth for the GCD to use
- daemonic fortitude (altoguht most time u used it on urself under pressure)
- silence enemy healer or casters
- AP ritual
- zealot class mark buffs for party

The cons
- Poor damage compared to pure dps classes
- ap hungry class
- Squshy class, whiout WoI not much to depend on when u got jumped. Have to stay kiting range.
- No resist debuff, only can depend chosen teammate which is not a to much debuff or a BO whit waaagh not using tatic for 5 sec cd on thier ability only. Tanks and other classes whit high resist will be just scratched by ur abilites.

I would happily take part in any testing or work whit the class.

wargrimnir wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:20 pmBalance post (removed to save space)

Thank you for explaining how the process works, much appreciated.

Here's the thing with the Zealot: I would love to put suggestions in the balance forum regarding non-healing abilities for the Zealot, but the first issue is that a lot of the abilities are broken in some way (and on the bug tracker) and have been like that for months, even years. I can't in good faith start putting forward proposals and arguments for abilities when it's impossible to actually get an accurate idea of how those abilities would perform currently if the bugs were fixed with them. A quick scan of the bug tracker:

General: a lot of the abilities have incorrect damage values as the base values were set as if Divine Fury was equipped
Chaotic Agitation: AoE behavior bugged
Harbinger of Doom: bugs out every zone transition, only noticible if you use .getstats so any Zealot using a mix of magic and heal stat gear likely has lower healing stats than they realise
Swirling Vortex: tactic doesn't increase duration of DoT and the range "increase" makes zero difference
Tzeentch's Lash: AoE tactic was so bugged it was removed from the mastery tree and never replaced
Waves of Chaos: range is bugged
Wind of Insanity: not sure if these are on the bug tracker yet (I'll be checking and testing tomorrow) but the taunt change broke other bits of the ability

Hence the frustration/anger from a lot of players when Changer's Touch - which was one of the few non-heal things on the Zealot with no bugs - was nerfed without any fixes being made to the main abilities/tactics the nerf affected (Chaotic Agitation, Waves of Chaos, and Wind of Insanity became bugged as a result of the patch). Bugs are being found with some of the healing skills but overall the Zealot's healing kit is solid and not really an issue.

I don't want to get the attention of balance devs to improve the class (yet...), I want to know how I get the attention of the bug fixing devs to consider prioritising the Zealot (and I assume Rune Priest) so the non-healing abilities and tactics work. Then we can talk about potential changes to them.

After this I'm 90% certain none of the Devs have played a DPS Zealot for any length of time. Ok, so in some situations DPS Zealots have abilities that if done right in a premade WB are pretty awesome, but then they spend the majority of the rest of the time just sucking. The sometimes, maybe, when the stars align, awesome ability gets nerfed, but then there is no thought to some sort of compensation for what was taken away. What kills me the most is that I have spent an enormous amount of time respecing and testing and respecing and testing and respecing and testing to find a couple of decent combinations on my DPS Zealot and then something about it gets nerfed or broken. Now there's only one spec left that is sort of workable, but totally underwhelming. Could there be a rule where nobody gets to nerf a class until they have played it to RR80?

Laurentz wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:49 pm After this I'm 90% certain none of the Devs have played a DPS Zealot for any length of time. Ok, so in some situations DPS Zealots have abilities that if done right in a premade WB are pretty awesome, but then they spend the majority of the rest of the time just sucking. The sometimes, maybe, when the stars align, awesome ability gets nerfed, but then there is no thought to some sort of compensation for what was taken away. What kills me the most is that I have spent an enormous amount of time respecing and testing and respecing and testing and respecing and testing to find a couple of decent combinations on my DPS Zealot and then something about it gets nerfed or broken. Now there's only one spec left that is sort of workable, but totally underwhelming. Could there be a rule where nobody gets to nerf a class until they have played it to RR80?

Probably thats the case, non of the ballancing devs ever tried how that class cloud work prenerf.
Which sadly is understandable some way, we playing here for free, they managing the game in their free time. Still would be nice if those making ballances actually try and get into a class before making a change on it.

Its sucks when u put years of effort into a class, which fits you the best and than it gets destroyed completly.
Think we can count in our two hands who got affected by the dzealot nerf, probably if a slayer would be make a waste of spot in 6vs6 and wb too, much more people would loose interest in the game. Everyone can project that view on their favorite class go useless how would they fell about it.