and i have DoK around RR71 mostly play as melee, becouse get bored with healing without any soul essence
DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles
Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles
i vote specialization,
and i have DoK around RR71 mostly play as melee, becouse get bored with healing without any soul essence
and i have DoK around RR71 mostly play as melee, becouse get bored with healing without any soul essence
Ads
Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles
Voted "None" because I've no idea, meanwhile this poll seems to generate some kind of turnoil.
Healing DoKs get the job done in the lakes and seems to be still meta-healer for groups. For groups I keep an eye out. (same for WP's on the other side, me on the receiving one)
The only experience I have with DPS DoK is with solo PVE and I've no interrest in dps DoKing in the lakes or scenarios. I've a DPS Zealot for the lakes for the fun.
My only concern is that whatever you change, enhance, it will unavoidably buff healing DoKs in some way. Not JoeSixPack healing DoK/WP but the top end ones.
Healing DoKs get the job done in the lakes and seems to be still meta-healer for groups. For groups I keep an eye out. (same for WP's on the other side, me on the receiving one)
The only experience I have with DPS DoK is with solo PVE and I've no interrest in dps DoKing in the lakes or scenarios. I've a DPS Zealot for the lakes for the fun.
My only concern is that whatever you change, enhance, it will unavoidably buff healing DoKs in some way. Not JoeSixPack healing DoK/WP but the top end ones.
Nidwinqq used teabag Magus [Hysteria]
Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles
There has been some very good posts on this, however there has been some posts which look to be posted by people who don’t even play a melee DOK or WP. On live my DOK was RR 66 and was only played as a melee DOK, I now have a level 40 Melee DOK here and will only be a melee DOK.
We all know that some classes are already overpowered, such as the AM and Shammy with there DPS. And that WH’s and WE’s have way to much armour penetration and can take down a S/B tanks very quickly. Add in that a WH and WE can stealth when in combat. With that said the Melee DOK and WP does need some love.
The only truly melee set that a DOK and WP can get is by doing scenarios, so by doing that you are already forcing players to just go healing spec.
• Turn the Beastlord set in to a melee dps set for the DOK and WP.
• 10% - 15% increase to damage in
o Path of Grace
o Path of Wrath
o Path of Torture
o Path of Sacrifice
The counter to WH’s and WE’s had always been S/B Tanks, this looks to have gone out of the window. So why not look at giving that role to the melee DOK / WP. This could be done by giving immunity to some of the WH / WE attacks on the level of Righteous Fury and Soul Essence that a WP or DOK has. This could be added in to one of the tactic’s.
For healing WP’s and DOK’s the costs of healing needs to come down.
We all know that some classes are already overpowered, such as the AM and Shammy with there DPS. And that WH’s and WE’s have way to much armour penetration and can take down a S/B tanks very quickly. Add in that a WH and WE can stealth when in combat. With that said the Melee DOK and WP does need some love.
The only truly melee set that a DOK and WP can get is by doing scenarios, so by doing that you are already forcing players to just go healing spec.
• Turn the Beastlord set in to a melee dps set for the DOK and WP.
• 10% - 15% increase to damage in
o Path of Grace
o Path of Wrath
o Path of Torture
o Path of Sacrifice
The counter to WH’s and WE’s had always been S/B Tanks, this looks to have gone out of the window. So why not look at giving that role to the melee DOK / WP. This could be done by giving immunity to some of the WH / WE attacks on the level of Righteous Fury and Soul Essence that a WP or DOK has. This could be added in to one of the tactic’s.
For healing WP’s and DOK’s the costs of healing needs to come down.
Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles
Good day.
I have been playing DoK as a healer for about 7 weeks straight. I am lvl 40/72 and I have led warbands extensively in this period almost every day. I can say the people I play with and me have seen a few things by now.
I have also played many MMORPGs in the past. Anarchy Online, Neocron, Star Wars Galaxies, EvE Online, SWTOR.. kinda all but WOW.
I respect the work and the time you guys invest in this project.
Sadly I feel the need to oppose a few things here before they even get started. If I don’t see the sunshine you are free to PM me.
What you will read is my personal opinion through observations I made and converations I had.
I will try to keep it simple and short, please read carefully even if it is a pain.
Point 1) of the poll is unacceptable, drastic changes to the class are not a good thing and not necessasry. Overhauls and changes that are far from the vanilla version of a DoK will result in spawning another unbalance, bugs, periodically ubarness of the class, player whining and leaving.. etc.
Point 2) we could talk about, but only if you are smart and present calculations that prove your point with a certain credibility.
My vote goes for point 2. Even if I think that there is no need to fix anything on the class trees.
Now there is questions. Many questions bacause things have to be told the way they are.
Why do people think there is a need to fix the DoK
- Some people say it is a "PUG killer"
Good, what is PUG first of all.
PUG is: "random" players thrown together in a certain enviorement, as far as I understand it. So it is T2/T3/T4 in one big melting pot.
As frustrating it is for the T2/T3 to face the reality to be outmatched by high geared players, as rewarding it is winning over them in many occasions. This is a MMORPG, longtime devotion to the game has to be payed off. This is not a MOBA or a FPS as CS:GO where everything is reset at the beginning of a match. You have to grind or do quests to shine as a pvp god.
- Some people say DoK hybrids lack in the dps/heal and therefore are useless or only good for solo
Well, well, well... that is utterly nonsense. DPS DoK lacks the dps of a WE or other DPS classes, yes that is true. And yes it is true that if not highend geared the DPS DoK might not be as effective as a WE etc. But the utility of a DoK is what makes it shine. The challange of a DPS DoK is what makes it fun to play. Especially in warbands and in scenarios. You can not possibly think to be able to change the class in a way it can reach higher DPS and get rid of the utilities.. You need to be very careful of what you will do there without crippling the healer aspect of the class.
I believe you understand what kinda stone you are about to throw into the lake.
- Some people say DoK lacks in healing, it needs to be buffed/focussed and it's dps lowered
Nein. You buff my healing any more or focus me to only heal -when specced sacrifice- and I will teach you the very meaning of OP in every ORVR with my PUG warbands. WP/DoK are really borderline godlike already as a healer.
A hybrid specced DoK healer lacks the defense of a pure healer specced DoK as the strength/weapon skill is needed to compensate and to land heals and utility.
Why is there no need to fix it?
Many people say DoK is fine in 6vs6.
I say DoK hybrids are amazing in oRvR warbands (you just rarely see them because there is no dps gear gained through oRvR or toxic trolltalk about dps heal).
So if people say that in premade 6vs6 Hybrid/DPS DoK is fine then we have a player controlled enviorement where it has been extensively tested, calculated, discussed, etc. Right? Good. Still following? Very well..
You can not come along and say it is not fine in a PUG scenario where 12 people are thrown together sort of randomly.
The problem is random geared teams in a T2/T3/T4 melting pot with undergeared, unguided players.
The problem is people hitting the worng target becasue of lack of /assist or for many personal motivations in every engagement. Believe me, I know what I am talking about I observe almost every player’s movement as a warband leader.
The problem is the pain to farm talismans/jewlery as T2/T3 players to reach a certain level of gear before hitting lvl 40.
etc., etc...
So summary of all this?
- If DoK is lacking the dps, it's because it has other things to offer. You have to higher the CD of healer utilities and lower them through tactics only accessable through a high healer spec. (as an example)
- DoK/WP is not broken to the point of overhauling the DPS trees, the changes Veszal/Rockalypse posted are a good direction of how you could handle the situation.
- Other factors that have nothing to do with the Class trees are responsible for player frustration.
- Do not upset geared players, they farmed their ass off for months. They enjoy the challange DPS DoK poses. That is a lot of time that could have been invested in other things that matter more.
Solutions before touching the class trees?
- Allow 12vs12 premades on certain scenario maps so you can gather data that is credible and upscaleable to rvr. This is crucial.
- Fix the matchmaking of SC, as DoK can be DPS. Allow players or Healer classes to list as a certain role.
- Implement or enhance dps gear with proper proc benefits for dps and hybrid dok through orvr. It does not necessary need a new skin, yet.
- Make it easier/more attractive for T2/T3 players to get talisman/jewlery that help to upscale the buffer so they are more competible.
- Listen and talk to players face to face that actually play DoK/WP extensively in every game aspect (even solo pve). They will most likely give you a good opinion. If you did that already, then it's nice. Be transparent about it.
I have been playing DoK as a healer for about 7 weeks straight. I am lvl 40/72 and I have led warbands extensively in this period almost every day. I can say the people I play with and me have seen a few things by now.
I have also played many MMORPGs in the past. Anarchy Online, Neocron, Star Wars Galaxies, EvE Online, SWTOR.. kinda all but WOW.
I respect the work and the time you guys invest in this project.
Sadly I feel the need to oppose a few things here before they even get started. If I don’t see the sunshine you are free to PM me.
What you will read is my personal opinion through observations I made and converations I had.
I will try to keep it simple and short, please read carefully even if it is a pain.
Point 1) of the poll is unacceptable, drastic changes to the class are not a good thing and not necessasry. Overhauls and changes that are far from the vanilla version of a DoK will result in spawning another unbalance, bugs, periodically ubarness of the class, player whining and leaving.. etc.
Point 2) we could talk about, but only if you are smart and present calculations that prove your point with a certain credibility.
My vote goes for point 2. Even if I think that there is no need to fix anything on the class trees.
Now there is questions. Many questions bacause things have to be told the way they are.
Why do people think there is a need to fix the DoK
- Some people say it is a "PUG killer"
Good, what is PUG first of all.
PUG is: "random" players thrown together in a certain enviorement, as far as I understand it. So it is T2/T3/T4 in one big melting pot.
As frustrating it is for the T2/T3 to face the reality to be outmatched by high geared players, as rewarding it is winning over them in many occasions. This is a MMORPG, longtime devotion to the game has to be payed off. This is not a MOBA or a FPS as CS:GO where everything is reset at the beginning of a match. You have to grind or do quests to shine as a pvp god.
- Some people say DoK hybrids lack in the dps/heal and therefore are useless or only good for solo
Well, well, well... that is utterly nonsense. DPS DoK lacks the dps of a WE or other DPS classes, yes that is true. And yes it is true that if not highend geared the DPS DoK might not be as effective as a WE etc. But the utility of a DoK is what makes it shine. The challange of a DPS DoK is what makes it fun to play. Especially in warbands and in scenarios. You can not possibly think to be able to change the class in a way it can reach higher DPS and get rid of the utilities.
Spoiler:
I believe you understand what kinda stone you are about to throw into the lake.
- Some people say DoK lacks in healing, it needs to be buffed/focussed and it's dps lowered
Nein. You buff my healing any more or focus me to only heal -when specced sacrifice- and I will teach you the very meaning of OP in every ORVR with my PUG warbands. WP/DoK are really borderline godlike already as a healer.
A hybrid specced DoK healer lacks the defense of a pure healer specced DoK as the strength/weapon skill is needed to compensate and to land heals and utility.
Why is there no need to fix it?
Many people say DoK is fine in 6vs6.
I say DoK hybrids are amazing in oRvR warbands (you just rarely see them because there is no dps gear gained through oRvR or toxic trolltalk about dps heal).
So if people say that in premade 6vs6 Hybrid/DPS DoK is fine then we have a player controlled enviorement where it has been extensively tested, calculated, discussed, etc. Right? Good. Still following? Very well..
You can not come along and say it is not fine in a PUG scenario where 12 people are thrown together sort of randomly.
The problem is random geared teams in a T2/T3/T4 melting pot with undergeared, unguided players.
The problem is people hitting the worng target becasue of lack of /assist or for many personal motivations in every engagement. Believe me, I know what I am talking about I observe almost every player’s movement as a warband leader.
The problem is the pain to farm talismans/jewlery as T2/T3 players to reach a certain level of gear before hitting lvl 40.
etc., etc...
So summary of all this?
- If DoK is lacking the dps, it's because it has other things to offer. You have to higher the CD of healer utilities and lower them through tactics only accessable through a high healer spec. (as an example)
- DoK/WP is not broken to the point of overhauling the DPS trees, the changes Veszal/Rockalypse posted are a good direction of how you could handle the situation.
- Other factors that have nothing to do with the Class trees are responsible for player frustration.
- Do not upset geared players, they farmed their ass off for months. They enjoy the challange DPS DoK poses. That is a lot of time that could have been invested in other things that matter more.
Solutions before touching the class trees?
- Allow 12vs12 premades on certain scenario maps so you can gather data that is credible and upscaleable to rvr. This is crucial.
- Fix the matchmaking of SC, as DoK can be DPS. Allow players or Healer classes to list as a certain role.
- Implement or enhance dps gear with proper proc benefits for dps and hybrid dok through orvr. It does not necessary need a new skin, yet.
- Make it easier/more attractive for T2/T3 players to get talisman/jewlery that help to upscale the buffer so they are more competible.
- Listen and talk to players face to face that actually play DoK/WP extensively in every game aspect (even solo pve). They will most likely give you a good opinion. If you did that already, then it's nice. Be transparent about it.
Lutz
-
Anomanderake
- Posts: 102
Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles
I voted specialization because i will really enjoy to play my DoK as a true dps..
Purake - BG 7X - GoD
For the Gaer Daecos' Freedoms
For the Gaer Daecos' Freedoms
Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles
I voted for specialization as well. I have no qualms about both the Warrior Priest and Disciple of Khaine becoming full-fledged mdps or melee-healing classes.
But to put it bluntly, I haven’t seen any evidence that the dok requires any more kill power. Their damage is respectable, and it is supplemented by the most powerful heal debuff that exists in the game. And Warrior Priests are not miles behind or anything.
Abilities like Rend Soul and Divine Assault complicate things due to their difficulty to balance. Having an ability that can potentially replenish a majority of your health on an eight second cooldown is...tricky. What should you lose for it? What should you gain without it?
The inevitably futile search in finding this perfect middleground in hybrid classes is why I’m voting specialization.
But to put it bluntly, I haven’t seen any evidence that the dok requires any more kill power. Their damage is respectable, and it is supplemented by the most powerful heal debuff that exists in the game. And Warrior Priests are not miles behind or anything.
Abilities like Rend Soul and Divine Assault complicate things due to their difficulty to balance. Having an ability that can potentially replenish a majority of your health on an eight second cooldown is...tricky. What should you lose for it? What should you gain without it?
The inevitably futile search in finding this perfect middleground in hybrid classes is why I’m voting specialization.
Chriz (Swordmaster 6x)
Criz (Runepriest 4x)
Chrizx (White Lion 8x)
Chrizzz (Squig Herder 6x)
Criz (Runepriest 4x)
Chrizx (White Lion 8x)
Chrizzz (Squig Herder 6x)
Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles
How about just up the cooldown for Rend Soul/Divine Assault to 10-15 sec? Or lower the heal portion of melee heals a bit and increase damage at the same time?
Bromley | Ironbreaker
Highbury | Rune Priest
Highbury | Rune Priest
Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles
Spoiler:
Ads
Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles
Tl:dr : Why can't we have both? I vote hybrid.
____________________________
I would love a pure DPS WP.
That said, though, I feel the true essence of the class was to be a hybrid. Would stink to see the potential of the playable hybrid be thrown away.
I'm speaking as mostly an uninformed citizen here as I don't hardcore play endgame 6v6 matches and I didn't have an RR60+ WP/DOK in live. It seems like the RR60+ consensus here is specialization. Cause what's the point of unique play style when you can't mirror all the other classes scoreboard numbers. I get that. But the RoR team actually gives a darn about the game and if anyone's gonna be able to make the hybrid class work it would be them.
I vote hybrid to keep the true intent of the class alive. (though, I personally think they should have hybrid spec and 2 specialized specs maybe introduce a 4th tree? Like wow druids. Again, probably impossible, crazy amount of work, daydreaming.)
Thanks,
Monster
Edit: Spelling, wording, grammar.
Edit 2: Removed wordiness
Edit 3: More wordiness.
____________________________
I would love a pure DPS WP.
That said, though, I feel the true essence of the class was to be a hybrid. Would stink to see the potential of the playable hybrid be thrown away.
I'm speaking as mostly an uninformed citizen here as I don't hardcore play endgame 6v6 matches and I didn't have an RR60+ WP/DOK in live. It seems like the RR60+ consensus here is specialization. Cause what's the point of unique play style when you can't mirror all the other classes scoreboard numbers. I get that. But the RoR team actually gives a darn about the game and if anyone's gonna be able to make the hybrid class work it would be them.
I vote hybrid to keep the true intent of the class alive. (though, I personally think they should have hybrid spec and 2 specialized specs maybe introduce a 4th tree? Like wow druids. Again, probably impossible, crazy amount of work, daydreaming.)
Thanks,
Monster
Edit: Spelling, wording, grammar.
Edit 2: Removed wordiness
Edit 3: More wordiness.
Last edited by monster on Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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