Return of Reckoning

Posted: **Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:49 am**

on the long run reworking the morales could make some classes more desirable in warbands and add more flavour to the class itself. More cc less damage.

A nice M4 for a we/wh could be a 10% damage buff for 10 secs for party or 5secs for all within 30ft? Or grant stealth to party for a short while?

Posted: **Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:51 am**

Timmitz wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:36 am the quick and simple solution for now would be halving the damage on all morales and halving the morale gain. This way a wb will still have the capability to push hard on a bottleneck but the impact isnt so great that building up to a moralebomb is the only viable strategy.

Besides that playing around morales only is so boring....

This would affect small scale changes aswell.

Posted: **Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:54 am**

roadkillrobin wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:51 am
Timmitz wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:36 am the quick and simple solution for now would be halving the damage on all morales and halving the morale gain. This way a wb will still have the capability to push hard on a bottleneck but the impact isnt so great that building up to a moralebomb is the only viable strategy.

Besides that playing around morales only is so boring....
This would affect small scale changes aswell.

yep, thats the general idea.

Posted: **Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:31 pm**

On the aspect of morale pumps/drains I still believe that they should all be converted to short duration buff/debuffs that increase/decrease morale generated per second. With a minimum and maximum amount to keep them from being stacked too much.

For instance we currently have 36 morale per second base. Mara drain is 25% chance on hit to reduce 225. Instead make it 45/s for 5s. Self pumps are usually 200 with 3s cd, make it 66/s for 3s.

Have the range be like -60 morale per second to +120 morale per second to keep anything from stacking beyond about 2 effects either way.

You can even convert the OP's idea and reduce your morale rate by the number of allies within a short radius

Posted: **Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:22 pm**

I found myself waiting morale bar.
not using other skills, not thinking much,
just waiting at the blob using best defensive skills, for morale bar.

you stop maneuvering.
for fastest morale you have to lock into fight. everyone do this, so blob.

with blob, everybody aoe.
why use ST dmg debuff, parry buff or snare? just WoDS( HtL ) back and forth until m2, m3, m4 rdy. and boom, die by enemy dump or push with ally dump.

morale solves everything.
clicking one button at the same time, that was the purpose of game.
bingo is more dynamic than this.
had you really been doing this for years in AoR?

here's arguments for morale defenders.

what small grps do to zerg with morale, zerg can do same to small grps. even more effectively.

morales don't work well with normal skills.
flat 1.2k dmg, flat dmg reduction, they ignoring too many variables.

quick erasing of enemy should not be the way of orvr. receiving end would lost interest.
there must be the losing side but let them play at least.
5min running from wc to fight for 15sec is bad design.
repeat this for 30min, I guarantee he'll logout.

here's some idea for morale.
I would suggest get rid of flat dmg and dmg reduction.
turn them into normal skills.
but other archetype's skills scaling with your main stat.

dps get tank and healer skill.
healer get tank and dps skill. so on.

calling artillery bombardment.
warhorn to rally allies.
healing tent for wounded.
summoning dragon or daemon.

not game changing serious.
just add some variety.
anything to enchance longer battle.
not quick death ray skills.

Posted: **Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:34 pm**

Spoiler:

Ramasee wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:41 am
Azarael wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:39 am So far, on the level of reasoning, I find Tesq and Aurandilaz the most convincing. The issue should not be framed around morales directly (yet, if it all). It should be framed around ensuring each class has a way to work and something to contribute within this system, and that both realms have access to a similar number of tools overall that work within the system, at similar levels (M4 to morale drain? Really?)

The place to start is thus just like normal balance - setting out exactly what each class brings to the realm in terms of warband play and working out which classes are bringing too much. The example raised of a ranged DPS with AoE bringing the close-range AoE M2 is obviously the defining one, and it would be my opinion that WH/WE should be the strongest users of such a morale due to the difficulty of handling these classes in large scale otherwise.

Moving to Balance Discussions.
I'll provide this from Phalanx PoV for 24 man WBs and 12 man WBs. I may have missed minorish things here and there.

==========
Order:
Knight: Auras, Tank Stuff (Guard, HTL, Challenge, Raze, champ's challenge), M3 1200 aoe dmg + root. AoE wounds buff (2h), AoE 3s stagger
Swordmaster: AoE Stat Steal, Party cooldown decreaser, Tank Stuff, AoE KB, (now also another aoe damage reduction in 11 pt vaul), AoE spirit debuff (not much use in order wbs)
Ironbreaker: Tank stuff, AoE Snare, Powerful ST Buffs, Highest Healing Ratio due to defensive tactics (last to die)

White Lion: Minor AoE Damage, M2 AoE DoT 1200/9s (crap), Ranged M1 root, Mostly useful for single target focused groups such as 12 and 6 mans.
Witch Hunter: What is a warband? M2 65 ft line 1200, Lolgun? (Honestly we never had one, maybe Xergon can fill us in here, he's always in wbs)
Slayer: High PBAoE Damage (but moderately countered by armor meta), AoE CD increaser, Short duration AoE Snare

Bright Wizard: High ranged AoE Damage, High PBAoE Damage, I heard you like damage, even to yourself!, M2 1200 PBAoE, M4 Ranged 1200 AoE, Proc Buffs, Self Morale Pump
Engineer: Best corporeal debuff (for your bright wizards), 15% parry/dodge strikethrough for landing tank CC/slayer damage/ self damage, Magnet, Decent AoE Damage (if set up, which it rarely is), AoE Stagger, AoE Knockback.
Shadow Warrior: Crit buff for party, 15% parry/dodge strikethrough for landing tank CC/slayer damage/ self damage, Moderate AoE damage, Mostly used for 12 man ST comps with its ranged KD.

Warrior Priest: AoE Cleanse, Heal/Dmg Proc, Primary Burst AoE Healer, M2 600 AoE damage / almost full party heal, M3 1200 AoE damage + stagger, AoE wounds buff
Runepriest: Wipe protection (kiting), AoE healing received buff, initiative party buff, ranged st stagger, Healing, AP for party, sometimes AoE heal debuff, Armor buff
Archmage: Morale Pump, WB Kiting (puddles), Instant Rez, Burst Healing our trapped tanky AF IB that failed to disengage (Love you, nemroth)

==========
Destro:
Chosen: Tank stuff, Auras, AoE 3s stagger, M2 I shall not die if I have a HoT!, AoE Wounds deuff, Self Morale pump 200/3s.
Black Orc: Tank Stuff, AoE Stat Steal, Self Morale Pump 144?/3s, AoE KB, party cooldown decreaser, AoE corp debuff (rarely used), M3 1200 aoe + silence
Blackguard: (We didn't use them, so basing it off career builder), Tank Stuff, AoE Wounds debuff (on crit), AoE snare, 10% block/parry strikethrough on enemies with 30ft

Marauder: ST Pull, Moderate AoE Damage with armor penetration, AoE morale drain, AoE AP drain, M2 1200 AoE, Ranged M1 root.
Choppa: High AoE Damage (mitigated by armor meta), AoE Pull (better than engi/maguc), Cooldown decreaser for party, AoE snare
Witch Elf: See witch hunter order side

Magus: High AoE Damage (if set up, rarely is), Best Spirit Debuff (for sorcs and self), "Magnet", AoE Stagger.
Sorc: See bright wizard, less PBAoE damage, More ranged AoE damage, No damage M2, M4 1200 AoE + permroot.
Squig: Never used them except in 12mans for their healer harassment and their melee tree has been changed much since I last organized warband on destro.

DoK: AoE Cleanse, Heal/Dmg Proc, Primary Burst AoE Healer, M2 600 AoE damage / almost full party heal, M3 1200 AoE damage + stagger, M2 Full Group Cleanse
Shaman: Party Kiting (puddle) Instant Rez, Group Morale pump (lets be honest, it was literally only for this with marauder), Wipe Prevention
Zealot: People love their fetishes, AoE healing received buff, initiative party buff, ranged st stagger, Healing, AP for party, sometimes AoE heal debuff, Armor buff, AoE KB, Self Morale Pump, M3 1200 AoE + silence

Edited to add destro and for something I missed on order.

This is a great overview of the "uses" for classes in wb. You can pretty clearly see that some classes are a lot more used than others. @Aza -- it's not just about having good morales to use (referring to WH/WE), it also has to be about having a role in warband. If your only role is to drop m2s and you provide no, or very little, utility/damage/support/whatever in conjunction with that, your spot will be taken by a class that can provide one or more of those variables.

Example: BW is taken because it has unmatched bombing capability and a good selection of aoe morales.
Mara is taken because it has morale drain, AP drain, decent damage, tankiness, and a good m2.

WH has the exact same m2 as Mara, but WH doesn't bring hardly any aoe damage or reasonable utility to warband (Dragon Gun being fun on paper but impractical in reality). We have a token WH but he runs EW + Excommunicate and we can only get away with that if we have really solid groups otherwise (2-2-2 stacked with RP/WP or RP/AM, IBs, Knights, BWs, SLs)

Posted: **Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:39 pm**

If enemy wb have morals up, morale drain dont work proper. If tanks are melted in 10s, maruder melt in 2s and he cant make single attack to use morale drain. More classes need easy acces to morale drain, or other system of morale drains

Posted: **Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:48 pm**

wachlarz wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:39 pm If enemy wb have morals up, morale drain dont work proper. If tanks are melted in 10s, maruder melt in 2s and he cant make single attack to use morale drain. More classes need easy acces to morale drain, or other system of morale drains

Well, yeah, if you have morales up and the enemy doesn't, you're probably going to win. I don't think that matters much when talking about morale drain capabilities, personally; Mara drain can be brutal if used effectively at the beginning of a fresh engage.

Posted: **Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:53 pm**

im gonna talk : yestarday i was in order side doing rvr in ThunderMountain, we were in the keep waiting the siege equipments, so a blob was formed there. There was a BW and he was spamming morals like a crazy, whit no enemies around. How easy can it be now?

I think morals are broken for sure.

Posted: **Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:00 pm**

wachlarz wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:39 pm If enemy wb have morals up, morale drain dont work proper. If tanks are melted in 10s, maruder melt in 2s and he cant make single attack to use morale drain. More classes need easy acces to morale drain, or other system of morale drains

The issue of not having / having is another thing.
The issue is how fast and what situations generate morals as well as the current morals being overly battle deciding in large scale rvr.
That is the whole purpose of the thread to see what we should do to create something less like an “I win” button

Return of Reckoning

Morals redesign idea

Re: Morals redesign idea

Re: Morals redesign idea

Re: Morals redesign idea

Re: Morals redesign idea

Re: Morals redesign idea

Re: Morals redesign idea

Re: Morals redesign idea

Re: Morals redesign idea

Re: Morals redesign idea

Re: Morals redesign idea