[Swordmaster] Forceful Shock

[Methryel]

In my mind, the Big issue with SM is the lack of synergy with other classes. I Can understand that give a punt will help but if you wanna only give the punt for SnB Vaul's tree, it wont change much because:
1)The middle tree IS almost dead ( PB, RF,VB...are not very usefull)
2)SnB dont worth it with à SM: you don't really get tougher and make less dmg.

So if you give a punt for a SnB SM in Vaul's tree, who's going to play this path only for a punt that you Can get with others tanks ?
If you're doing so, Vaul's tree will need maybe other changes to be sexy again

[Sprak]

As I stated before, the issue is with the class itself. SM's are a confused class... they were originally designed (as I've read/been told) as a MDPS, but was only later switched to be a tank with WL's filling the MDPS spot.

In my opinion though, SM's are a shock troop. SM's are able to deal a considerable amount of damage, while taking a considerable amount as well. SM's can stay in the fight as opposed to having to jump in and out (dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge) like MDPS lest they melt away.

SM's control the battlefield differently then other tanks. Other tanks might have more access to KD's and super punts and better group utility, while SM's are amazing at applying pressure unlike other tank classes. This in turn forces Destro's attention towards the SM's while taking it off the rest of the group. I don't know how many times I've had entire groups focus me down after I get on a healer and they go "Oh ****!" because of the dps output.

Also, a DPS SM guarding a MDPS is a frightening thing when they focus down targets. Get a guard on the SM from some rhinoceros of a tank and you get a guard chain melee train of doomage.

I think the AoE punt is more than enough for a SM, its a niche and situational ability, but still useful. Overall I don't feel the SM needs a ST punt, maybe changes made to the AoE punt. Lets be honest, unless the ST punt is a super punt, its pointless to use to separate a target from its guardian tank.

[Aethilmar]

Sprak is exactly correct about how the SM came into existence in this game and their intended design goal. All the attempts (both live and here) to make them like "a real tank" have ultimately failed. They are best as two-handed shock troops (and should be the best 2-handed shock troop as their niche) with S&B available as an option for those who want to play them "the other way".

If you want to give them a better punt then make Forceful Shock increase the punt distance on Gusting Wind which would also complement their role as a tank that dives in an disrupts the enemy. Would never waste a tactic spot on a single target punt and there are better tank options for that if you want to use "punt and separate" kill strategy.

[Methryel]

As I stated before, the issue is with the class itself. SM's are a confused class... they were originally designed (as I've read/been told) as a MDPS, but was only later switched to be a tank with WL's filling the MDPS spot.

In my opinion though, SM's are a shock troop. SM's are able to deal a considerable amount of damage, while taking a considerable amount as well. SM's can stay in the fight as opposed to having to jump in and out (dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge) like MDPS lest they melt away.

SM's control the battlefield differently then other tanks. Other tanks might have more access to KD's and super punts and better group utility, while SM's are amazing at applying pressure unlike other tank classes. This in turn forces Destro's attention towards the SM's while taking it off the rest of the group. I don't know how many times I've had entire groups focus me down after I get on a healer and they go "Oh ****!" because of the dps output.

Also, a DPS SM guarding a MDPS is a frightening thing when they focus down targets. Get a guard on the SM from some rhinoceros of a tank and you get a guard chain melee train of doomage.

I think the AoE punt is more than enough for a SM, its a niche and situational ability, but still useful. Overall I don't feel the SM needs a ST punt, maybe changes made to the AoE punt. Lets be honest, unless the ST punt is a super punt, its pointless to use to separate a target from its guardian tank.

So , what do you think about vaul's tree? do we have to delete it?
You describe a khaine/hoeth spec. Can we imagine play another way?

[anarchypark]

SM's control the battlefield differently then other tanks. Other tanks might have more access to KD's and super punts and better group utility, while SM's are amazing at applying pressure unlike other tank classes. This in turn forces Destro's attention towards the SM's while taking it off the rest of the group. I don't know how many times I've had entire groups focus me down after I get on a healer and they go "Oh ****!" because of the dps output.

no...
destro focus dps tanks cus it's squishy,
not because it's threat.
SM alone is not a pressure if target knows detaunt.

real threat is your guarded mdps. dps SM may guard well in small scale.
in big fight? without real tank line, it's harder.

tanky SM can stand front line while guarding someone.
I don't think dps is SM's define role.

tank who can hit little harder.
dps who can stay little longer.
your choice. but remember you are tank.

[Sprak]

No, I'm not saying delete the Vaul tree, but it needs an overhaul at the very least IMO. SM's took a hard hit when CW went back up to the top of the tree, Although I like the attempt at trying to give SM's some kind of "thorns type" damage... even though its super bad at the moment.

But again, I feel the SM class itself is the issue. a ST punt won't be worth it if its not a super punt. We also start treading the path of making every tank class the same thing.

Why not adjust the punts SM's already have by reducing the immunity CD it grants? The punts are situational at best, and neither really punts people all that far.

As for "Destro focus dps tanks cus it's squishy"... how often are you able to eyeball any destro on screen and assume it is one thing or another? GW or SnB don't automatically make it one thing or the other, they aren't exclusive to being only dps or only tanky. Even if that were true, it still takes the focus off the rest of the group, so job done.

[dansari]

Changing immunity timers is unlikely.

[Sprak]

Hmm, what about the idea Aethilmar had? improving the AoE punt already used by SM's would be much better. I also feel that wasting a tactic slot just to get a punt in general seems like a waste. I don't mind that it's attached to Blurring Shock, as I believe the idea was you punt enemies into your comrades while applying the awesome dmg on crit ability of blurring shock to help melt things faster. Then again, the punt distance just isn't worth it.

[Harkonen]

Improving the aoe knockback in Vaul tree would result in the SM keeping his niche/peeling ability; I like it.

Curious about the heavens blade changes though, I think it will impact a lot the SnB builds and thus Vaul synergy with Hoeth as well.

[CytheX]

Instead of improving the punt why don add a Lil snare effect(20%) for 3/5 sec? Via tattic?