[Review] [Mara] Gift of monstrosity

[Tesq]

I think we need to consider the "whole" situation of a class instead of certain abilities and tactics in a vacuum. Because if you use the "it's a core ability" argument. Then there is a lot of work ahead with some core abilities and tactics that are way too strong.

Then there is Tesq with his "only rvr" setting argument. Should the goal not be to balance as good as possible from 6man setting and up? With Tesq's logic, we need to balance after categories. So we will have "6man rvr", "wb rvr", "6v6 sc", "normal sc" balance. It will be impossible.

Finally, there is the choppa argument. When did choppa become the golden standard for mdps? Why does mara have to be brought down to choppa level and not reverse?

It has been pointed out many times now, on paper GoM is strong, but ingame it is actually fine. I would like to know which marauders are going around terrorizing order and ruining balance with the OP GoM? Maybe I missed the WB with 8 monstro marauders...

no there are mastery oriented to st or aoe, monstro is an aoe mastery and not st

small scale is primary if not ONLY ST oriented,

HERE IS the difference, i am trying to balance an aoe mastery for the place where aoe getting done (orvr) you are saying we should balance an aoe mastery vs st stuff for a place where aoe is not done, justifying 1 op skill which you use as panic button because is of course way too good from a mastery you don't spec into in a game where you can spec 2/3 mastery on every class (and you are not even using any single skill fromt he mastery (exept the stance/GoM). It's hilarious to me that someone is trying to justify the GoM opness by "but we should balance all game to be viable from 6 vs 6+ "when the ONLY SINGLE skill any monstro mara gona use in sc ( which mean he's spec sav+brut 99% of time) is the monstro stance when in danger. You are NOT using the mastery AT ALL you are using a SINGLE skill because is overpowered and can be used with sav+brut build...point.

mostro do aoe dmg on 9 targets, take a mostro skill and do x9 and you will see the dmg output is higer than st mono target skill, it dosent not need a genious for that so nope, monstro dont need a dmg buff nor a so good def skill as this, his dmg is ok(and designed for aoe not st balance), choppa aoe is **** and everyone know it. ST is equal to slayer (exept the fact that slayer keep using his aoe stuff for st purpose which is not fine nor balanced and imo at least because im sane on mind should not translate in justify op stuff on des classes-

GoM is a general class buffer with out any restriction which is good dosent matter what build and is core which mean is the a manual 's exemple of op stuff, like others in game.

[theoddone]

I think we need to consider the "whole" situation of a class instead of certain abilities and tactics in a vacuum. Because if you use the "it's a core ability" argument. Then there is a lot of work ahead with some core abilities and tactics that are way too strong.

Then there is Tesq with his "only rvr" setting argument. Should the goal not be to balance as good as possible from 6man setting and up? With Tesq's logic, we need to balance after categories. So we will have "6man rvr", "wb rvr", "6v6 sc", "normal sc" balance. It will be impossible.

Finally, there is the choppa argument. When did choppa become the golden standard for mdps? Why does mara have to be brought down to choppa level and not reverse?

It has been pointed out many times now, on paper GoM is strong, but ingame it is actually fine. I would like to know which marauders are going around terrorizing order and ruining balance with the OP GoM? Maybe I missed the WB with 8 monstro marauders...

no there are mastery oriented to st or aoe, monstro is an aoe mastery and not st

small scale is primary if not ONLY ST oriented,

HERE IS the difference, i am trying to balance an aoe mastery for the place where aoe getting done (orvr) you are saying we should balance an aoe mastery vs st stuff for a place where aoe is not done, justifying 1 op skill which you use as panic button because is of course way too good from a mastery you don't spec into in a game where you can spec 2/3 mastery on every class (and you are not even using any single skill fromt he mastery (exept the stance/GoM). It's hilarious to me that someone is trying to justify the GoM opness by "but we should balance all game to be viable from 6 vs 6+ "when the ONLY SINGLE skill any monstro mara gona use in sc ( which mean he's spec sav+brut 99% of time) is the monstro stance when in danger. You are NOT using the mastery AT ALL you are using a SINGLE skill because is overpowered and can be used with sav+brut build...point.

mostro do aoe dmg on 9 targets, take a mostro skill and do x9 and you will see the dmg output is higer than st mono target skill, it dosent not need a genious for that so nope, monstro dont need a dmg buff nor a so good def skill as this, his dmg is ok, choppa aoe is **** and everyone know it. st is equal to slayer (exept the fact that slayer keep using his aoe stuff for st purpose which is not fine nor balanced and imo at least because im sane on mind should not translate in justify op stuff on des classes-

GoM is a general class buffer with out any restriction which is good dosent matter what build and is core which mean is the a manual 's exemple of op stuff, like others in game.

You did not respond to a lot of my arguments, so will do the same to you.

The class is designed to stance dance. So just because you don't spec for the mastery or use all of its abilities, does not mean that it should not be viable. Just because you dont spec for a tree, the abilities linked to the tree should be ****?
Anyway you are quite wrong that the only monstro ability used in ST spec is the gift. I personally use MoT, FA, and ME. All great abilities. I recommend everyone to use them. Sometimes I even spec for WoM. Shocker right:D

You seem to have this idea that AoE spec is the only viable spec in rvr. Becuase theoretically it hits multiple targets and therefore does most amount of dmg. I mean you could say the same about only spamming fireball on BW. On paper it should do the most ST dmg in the long run. With this kind of logic, you miss so many concepts that are crucial to this game. What about burst or mobility etc? Of course, single target damage has a place in rvr, and no, not just small scale. You should get out of your comfort zone and try different play styles. I think it would expand your horizon Tesq.

[Melekith]

As I said: Don't look at one single thing and argue its broken. Mara switching to GoM is not invulnerable. He was never and he is not. He is the defensive melee on destruction side as the WL is on order, not as squishy as WE and choppa, but he lacks the burst. You just pick one fact like the armor pen and say its broken because you just claim it.

Mara don't have the burst of a choppa. Choppa trades his defense for offense, that is not comparable to a class like mara, which is supposed to switch stance. Complete other mechanic but you compare it to the aoe of the choppa, why?

If you want every class be the same, why we don't mirror everything? Every side gets all classes? Because Mythic wanted no mirror classes. Mark Jacobs stated it is more fun this way.

My argument with shadow warrior - as it is comparable to the fact, that it is a stance switching class - SW is supposed to switch stance, that is for what mara and sw is designed for. And SW do switch stance when they are focused in melee combat. I can easily claim, that giving that amount of buffs for a range class like SW is too strong when there is no skill point invested. But this would take the fun out of the shadow warrior. And you just want to take out the fun out of mara.

[OldSerpenT]

Do you realize, why marauders are using GoM at all?
Normally for small scale encounters maras are more in savage spec, rather than monstro.

The only use for marauders in RvR though is morale drain. They are being guarded, they spec themselves to be tanky for only one stupid purpose.
It's not about damage. It's about the thing that monstro is the only career path that is useful in WB to somehow counter stupid 2-button 2nd BW morale gameplay. I hope you don't need detailed explanation of how BW bomb-squads actually work?

Mara has no stealth to sneak on healer.
Mara has no pet that shreds opponent to pieces when master just safely stays away and sipping beer in his... Toughness + Wounds spec?
Mara even has no pull ability like WL. Oh, my bad... Terrible Embrace... That works on int... And can be landed on healer with a chance just a little bit less than 0 with 65ft range... Yeah... So competitive to cat that even jumps on a wall to fetch some glorious destro warrior to WL. I actually think that TE should imperatively cause emote /laugh on opponent, like it's tickling.

Why not to leave freak alone? He's already broken badly.

[Tesq]

Do you realize, why marauders are using GoM at all?
Normally for small scale encounters maras are more in savage spec, rather than monstro.

The only use for marauders in RvR though is morale drain. They are being guarded, they spec themselves to be tanky for only one stupid purpose.
It's not about damage. It's about the thing that monstro is the only career path that is useful in WB to somehow counter stupid 2-button 2nd BW morale gameplay. I hope you don't need detailed explanation of how BW bomb-squads actually work?

Mara has no stealth to sneak on healer.
Mara has no pet that shreds opponent to pieces when master just safely stays away and sipping beer in his... Toughness + Wounds spec?
Mara even has no pull ability like WL. Oh, my bad... Terrible Embrace... That works on int... And can be landed on healer with a chance just a little bit less than 0 with 65ft range... Yeah... So competitive to cat that even jumps on a wall to fetch some glorious destro warrior to WL. I actually think that TE should imperatively cause emote /laugh on opponent, like it's tickling.

Why not to leave freak alone? He's already broken badly.

GoM armor pen is useless vs bw, nerf GoM armor pen component dosent prevent to bevahe vs bw as mara still have done till now, or vs wh as said if not at least it will allow more classes that are not BW/wh to enter rvr lake and feel like they are not jimping themself when they see bw going around killing stuff. (my proposal regard the armor pen reduction only and not even the heal part so it only mater vs physical damages dealers)

mara has a ista m2 1200 dmg one of the best currently feature in whole game for orvr, the same of bw. Mara dont spec tanky, they spec full off because GoM and ch+bo + guard make em retarded hard to be kill at max 4 def jewerly (impervious wind).
Again what does even pull and other st stuff HAVE to do with an aoe mastry and facing bw bomb, appart the fact that mara pull is undefeatable from beheind as per last changes, ppl seems to miss the point of mostro build so tell me what build you use on your marauder (st/aoe/hybrid) and for what (gank/small scale/orvr mass fight) and expolain me why you need:

-a panic button out of spec in small scale when you build sav+brut or you go home (so you have access to something you should not have and you dont want run mostro but you jsut want op mostro stance?)
-a 100% update time 100% armor pen reduction in orvr when is all about bw aoe (so nerf it wont change anything vs the most dangerous meta but will jsut allow more classes into a part of it)
-a 100% armor pen for gank? when you usually gank lower number than you or anyway fast run away and this require you stay into melee range and spam aoe stuff to proc the effect (so something you should not have or need have to use).

again choppa hit for 61-69 dmg in full mastery on 3 ppl (x ror buidler) vs mara 138 dmg with same point investiment x9 ppl (x ror buidler)

same is for slayer vs mara as tooltips are the same of chopp:

-mara have higer crits chance,
-mara do higer crit dmg (50% more via tactic)
-higher base tooltips (so most likely same end dmgs or more)
-mara aoe burst was buffed (wrecking ball was buffed)
-better aoe utility
-and immunity to 3-4 classes dmg

[Arteker616]

Do you realize, why marauders are using GoM at all?
Normally for small scale encounters maras are more in savage spec, rather than monstro.

The only use for marauders in RvR though is morale drain. They are being guarded, they spec themselves to be tanky for only one stupid purpose.
It's not about damage. It's about the thing that monstro is the only career path that is useful in WB to somehow counter stupid 2-button 2nd BW morale gameplay. I hope you don't need detailed explanation of how BW bomb-squads actually work?

Mara has no stealth to sneak on healer.
Mara has no pet that shreds opponent to pieces when master just safely stays away and sipping beer in his... Toughness + Wounds spec?
Mara even has no pull ability like WL. Oh, my bad... Terrible Embrace... That works on int... And can be landed on healer with a chance just a little bit less than 0 with 65ft range... Yeah... So competitive to cat that even jumps on a wall to fetch some glorious destro warrior to WL. I actually think that TE should imperatively cause emote /laugh on opponent, like it's tickling.

Why not to leave freak alone? He's already broken badly.

GoM armor pen is useless vs bw, nerf GoM armor pen component dosent prevent to bevahe vs bw as mara still have done till now, or vs wh as said if not at least it will allow more classes that are not BW/wh to enter rvr lake and feel like they are not jimping themself when they see bw going around killing stuff. (my proposal regard the armor pen reduction only and not even the heal part so it only mater vs physical damages dealers)

mara has a ista m2 1200 dmg one of the best currently feature in whole game for orvr, the same of bw. Mara dont spec tanky, they spec full off because GoM and ch+bo + guard make em retarded hard to be kill at max 4 def jewerly (impervious wind).
Again what does even pull and other st stuff HAVE to do with an aoe mastry and facing bw bomb, appart the fact that mara pull is undefeatable from beheind as per last changes, ppl seems to miss the point of mostro build so tell me what build you use on your marauder (st/aoe/hybrid) and for what (gank/small scale/orvr mass fight) and expolain me why you need:

-a panic button out of spec in small scale when you build sav+brut or you go home (so you have access to something you should not have and you dont want run mostro but you jsut want op mostro stance?)
-a 100% update time 100% armor pen reduction in orvr when is all about bw aoe (so nerf it wont change anything vs the most dangerous meta but will jsut allow more classes into a part of it)
-a 100% armor pen for gank? when you usually gank lower number than you or anyway fast run away and this require you stay into melee range and spam aoe stuff to proc the effect (so something you should not have or need have to use).

again choppa hit for 61-69 dmg in full mastery on 3 ppl (x ror buidler) vs mara 138 dmg with same point investiment x9 ppl (x ror buidler)

same is for slayer vs mara as tooltips are the same of chopp:

-mara have higer crits chance,
-mara do higer crit dmg (50% more via tactic)
-higher base tooltips (so most likely same end dmgs or more)
-mara aoe burst was buffed (wrecking ball was buffed)
-better aoe utility
-and immunity to 3-4 classes dmg

Bad analogy, because u forgot to mention, Mara attacks still can be defended , No slayer gonna run rvr aoe spec without poping rampage wich gonna mean if he gets in range he gonna hit .
The main reason mara aoe tooltips are abit higher than choppa is because when choppa was released mara was the premier aoe mele on destro with most his skills going up to 65 feets . wich got nerfed down . the dmg on choppa /slayer were reduced . to give you a example at 60 original slayer/choppa wrecka skaven flurry lots was 650 dmg , id was 580 and original git to da choppa was 750, the dmg on both aoe classes was nerfed and while slayer remained superior due to better abilitys and synergy choppa did bite the dust.specialy Because the lifetap procs working on multiple aoe targets for two of them while it did not worked for mara.

To be honest i dont see the logic of this proposal at all . all classes wich have stance mechanics got benefeits per stance switching some are situational other main stream .

the key of these stances is to play around them to benefeit and reward players knowing to use em instead to limit themselves to more of the same. by following ur logic , then sw shs and wl should get nerfed because their ability to remain tanky at the cost to lose kinda alot of dps .

My final question stand still. can Mara montro gift proc be shattered /sever?,Because if it does , i dont see any reason to complain about the skill when alot of classes have the ability to nullify the adventage.

[dansari]

To be fair, Rampage can be shattered yet it is brought up frequently as if it's 20s of God mode. Not aware if monstro proc can be shattered.

[TenTonHammer]

but he lacks the burst. You just pick one fact like the armor pen and say its broken because you just claim it.

Mara don't have the burst of a choppa. Choppa trades his defense for offense, that is not comparable to a class like mara, which is supposed to switch stance. Complete other mechanic but you compare it to the aoe of the choppa, why?

This is actully wrong, mara has both strong front load and back load burst

Mara's frontload comes from its thunderous blow wounds debuff, that while nerfed is still very strong and backload burst comes from guillotine, the damage difference between choppa and mara is not all that far off

To be fair, Rampage can be shattered yet it is brought up frequently as if it's 20s of God mode. Not aware if monstro proc can be shattered.

can be shattered, dosnt necessary mean it will be due to the rng nature of shatter if the slayer has other buffs/enchantments up

The only use for marauders in RvR though is morale drain. They are being guarded, they spec themselves to be tanky for only one stupid purpose.
It's not about damage. It's about the thing that monstro is the only career path that is useful in WB to somehow counter stupid 2-button 2nd BW morale gameplay. I hope you don't need detailed explanation of how BW bomb-squads actually work?

Mara has far more uses in orvr than just morale drain, there is a reason that mara is considered the single best mdps option for destro WB's

Wave of terror, AoE KD and AoE ini debuff all proive both AoE damage and great utlity

additionally Mara is great for morale bombing thanks to great fang M2

[Melekith]

mara has a ista m2 1200 dmg one of the best currently feature in whole game for orvr, the same of bw. Mara dont spec tanky, they spec full off because GoM and ch+bo + guard make em retarded hard to be kill at max 4 def jewerly (impervious wind).
Again what does even pull and other st stuff HAVE to do with an aoe mastry and facing bw bomb, appart the fact that mara pull is undefeatable from beheind as per last changes, ppl seems to miss the point of mostro build so tell me what build you use on your marauder (st/aoe/hybrid) and for what (gank/small scale/orvr mass fight) and expolain me why you need:

It is simply not true, that all marauders spec full off. As I said, I wear 4 Dom, 2 Conq and I am not unkillable. You have to be somewhat more tanky than an choppa or witch elf, cause you lack the burst, and your debuffs are too important, so you have to apply them. For that reason you have to survive. Marauder has a supporting role. The debuffs help other classes to do their damage.

The m2: I miss the point?

One more point: If you use GoM you break your detaunt, so it is a fair trade. The life reg can easily countered by the damage of you opponent, it is not very high.

[Dammy095]

Spoiler:

-and immunity to 3-4 classes dmg

what ?
i hope this class doesnt get nerfed for no reason just becasue one guy REALLY insisting on it.
there more far broken abilities on other classes