Return of Reckoning

dansari wrote:

lefze wrote:

dansari wrote:

Spoiler:

Yeah and while we're at it, let's tie it to Mara's new pet, which can be killed off incredibly easily unless specced into Guardian tree, and we have to actually get the pet into melee range of the target to pull! See, I can move the goalposts too! Isn't that fun?

The point is, Mara's abuse this in melee range as well.

The point is, that even if some do, they pretty much wasted to 2 seconds to MAYBE gain 2 seconds, but most likely to achieve a disrupt.

Except when you pair it with a knockdown, and you get 5+ seconds of facing the target's back for free. There's no question that it's less effective or less reliable, but it is still abused.

Maybe, doesn't mean that if changed to closer mirror WLs pull, downsides don't need to go both ways. And trust me, the downsides are real, and a pain compared to WLs pull even with a minimum range on the latter.

dansari wrote:

lefze wrote:

dansari wrote:

Spoiler:

Yeah and while we're at it, let's tie it to Mara's new pet, which can be killed off incredibly easily unless specced into Guardian tree, and we have to actually get the pet into melee range of the target to pull! See, I can move the goalposts too! Isn't that fun?

The point is, Mara's abuse this in melee range as well.

The point is, that even if some do, they pretty much wasted to 2 seconds to MAYBE gain 2 seconds, but most likely to achieve a disrupt.

Except when you pair it with a knockdown, and you get 5+ seconds of facing the target's back for free. There's no question that it's less effective or less reliable, but it is still abused.

All it takes to mess with a Mara is a tank with taunt/challenge off CD, aside from the various interrupts and rkds on Order. Mind you, silence counters it aswell. If the Mara pull gets through the player-checks, it still has a disrupt to pass through (which can be **** with too, by virtue of HtL and alike). Just by observation I can tell that the Mara pull is a dice roll - with a loaded dice at that.

I only ever see Maras using the pull against the tryhardest, most obvious and most disorganized pugs. Outside of pugfarm its a wasted GCD with an additional second slapped ontop, for a CC that couldn't be more obviously telegraphed - even in melee range, nested in a meleetrain the animation is mindbogglingly obvious.

Hargrim, you are my favorite for that seed fix. Thanks!

Darosh wrote:

dansari wrote:

lefze wrote:
The point is, that even if some do, they pretty much wasted to 2 seconds to MAYBE gain 2 seconds, but most likely to achieve a disrupt.

Except when you pair it with a knockdown, and you get 5+ seconds of facing the target's back for free. There's no question that it's less effective or less reliable, but it is still abused.

All it takes to mess with a Mara is a tank with taunt/challenge off CD, aside from the various interrupts and rkds on Order. Mind you, silence counters it aswell. If the Mara pull gets through the player-checks, it still has a disrupt to pass through (which can be **** with too, by virtue of HtL and alike). Just by observation I can tell that the Mara pull is a dice roll - with a loaded dice at that.

I only ever see Maras using the pull against the tryhardest, most obvious and most disorganized pugs. Outside of pugfarm its a wasted GCD with an additional second slapped ontop, for a CC that couldn't be more obviously telegraphed - even in melee range, nested in a meleetrain the animation is mindbogglingly obvious.

And all it takes to stop Fetch is to move. You don't even have to be speed boosted. If the target is moving the lion cannot fetch 9/10 times due to the terribleness of pets. So if you're trying to bring up counters then Destro has the easiest counter in the game.

Manatikik wrote: And all it takes to stop Fetch is to move. You don't even have to be speed boosted. If the target is moving the lion cannot fetch 9/10 times due to the terribleness of pets. So if you're trying to bring up counters then Destro has the easiest counter in the game.

So, rather than advocating for a fix for a mechanically broken ability, you advocate for a mechanically sound ability to get broken?

Darosh wrote:

Manatikik wrote: And all it takes to stop Fetch is to move. You don't even have to be speed boosted. If the target is moving the lion cannot fetch 9/10 times due to the terribleness of pets. So if you're trying to bring up counters then Destro has the easiest counter in the game.

So, rather than advocating for a fix for a mechanically broken ability, you advocate for a mechanically sound ability to get broken?

Where did I say that? If you read my first post I wasn't against the change; nor did I state anywhere to do anything to mara pull. Just pointing out the hypocrisy in all the Destro whine of Fetch vs Embrace.

lefze wrote:

dansari wrote:

Spoiler:

lefze wrote:
So to balance this, Fetch should become a 2 second channel aswell, and scale with int like mara pull, as a tradeoff mara gets a minimum distance aswell?

Yeah and while we're at it, let's tie it to Mara's new pet, which can be killed off incredibly easily unless specced into Guardian tree, and we have to actually get the pet into melee range of the target to pull! See, I can move the goalposts too! Isn't that fun?

The point is, Mara's abuse this in melee range as well.

The point is, that even if some do, they pretty much wasted to 2 seconds to MAYBE gain 2 seconds, but most likely to achieve a disrupt.

If it's a wasted 2 seconds and not worth the bother, why worry about if they implement a minimal distance at all...Since, you know, it doesn't matter any way, according to your own argument.

fleshsaber wrote:

lefze wrote:

dansari wrote:

Spoiler:

Yeah and while we're at it, let's tie it to Mara's new pet, which can be killed off incredibly easily unless specced into Guardian tree, and we have to actually get the pet into melee range of the target to pull! See, I can move the goalposts too! Isn't that fun?

The point is, Mara's abuse this in melee range as well.

The point is, that even if some do, they pretty much wasted to 2 seconds to MAYBE gain 2 seconds, but most likely to achieve a disrupt.

If it's a wasted 2 seconds and not worth the bother, why worry about if they implement a minimal distance at all...Since, you know, it doesn't matter any way, according to your own argument.

They could work on more important class balancing instead, the change to wl fetch was a good one changing mara pull would maybe be a waste of time

Manatikik wrote:

Darosh wrote:

Manatikik wrote: And all it takes to stop Fetch is to move. You don't even have to be speed boosted. If the target is moving the lion cannot fetch 9/10 times due to the terribleness of pets. So if you're trying to bring up counters then Destro has the easiest counter in the game.

So, rather than advocating for a fix for a mechanically broken ability, you advocate for a mechanically sound ability to get broken?

Where did I say that? If you read my first post I wasn't against the change; nor did I state anywhere to do anything to mara pull. Just pointing out the hypocrisy in all the Destro whine of Fetch vs Embrace.

If fetch wouldn't go all bonkers because of the pet - as you per your description - there wouldn't be any hypocrisy in the argument. One would think that considering [working state vs working state] > [working state vs broken state], longterm - as development picks up - the latter will be irrelevant, or am I missing something?

Akilinus wrote:

fleshsaber wrote:

lefze wrote:
The point is, that even if some do, they pretty much wasted to 2 seconds to MAYBE gain 2 seconds, but most likely to achieve a disrupt.

If it's a wasted 2 seconds and not worth the bother, why worry about if they implement a minimal distance at all...Since, you know, it doesn't matter any way, according to your own argument.

They could work on more important class balancing instead, the change to wl fetch was a good one changing mara pull would maybe be a waste of time

gotcha