[Review] [KOTBS] Glory Tree

[Bozzax]

Heal debuff are multiplicative:

100base heal -> +40% from FM and Bless of Grugni = 140base heal -> -50% HD (incoming) = 70 heal -> 50% outgoing = 35 Heal
Total: instead of a 75% maximum possible heal debuff you have a 65%, draw your conclusions

Proof please they are all incoming mods (on heal reciever) and therfore more likely stack additivly.

Like this
Incoming heals x (1 + 0.25 (bog)+ 0.15 (fm) - 0.5 (hdebuff))

[Penril]

I mentioned i was gonna change the BDF rules in a different thread. While I haven't written them all yet, I can tell you in advance how it is gonna work (and will work from now in this thread).

Basically, leads decide what gets changed and what doesn't. They don't have the time to read all the Balance Discussion forum though, so I move any thread that I consider worthy of being discussed. At that point, you have to convince ME that a change needs to happen. If you succeed, I present the leads my conclusions and push for a change.

The reason for this change is that, as I explained, leads expect my feedback after any discussion. And i am done with moderating babies fighting each other; from now on, your discussions are with me. Those who know me know I am not intransigent; those who don't know me, well, will probably whine. Not that I care.

As for now, no one has convinced me that FM is balanced. People have mentioned:

- Chosen heal debuff aura, which might only be good for large scale AoE bombing. It doesn't stack with other heal debuffs though, and you want 50%. KotBS HD aura is bad too, but at least it lets you affect healers just by being within 30ft. Other classes have to hit the healer, and good healers get hit very rarely by a BG/IB/etc.
- Blessing of Chaos. I mean, seriously? Blessing of Grungni. Next.
- Some random numbers which no one has provided proof for yet. I need evidence.

[dansari]

As for now, no one has convinced me that FM is balanced. People have mentioned:

To be fair, has anyone convinced you that it's unbalanced? From what I've seen the complaints against it have been categorically disproven.

[Penril]

As for now, no one has convinced me that FM is balanced. People have mentioned:

To be fair, has anyone convinced you that it's unbalanced? From what I've seen the complaints against it have been categorically disproven.

I will be completely honest. No one has convinced me, but my initial feeling is that it is too strong for being that low in the tree. For now I agree with, at least, moving it up.

[zumos2]

Right now, no one has convinced me that FM is balanced.
.

This is one of the things wrong with balancing this way. Apparently you do not need to be convince something is unbalanced, but now we have to convince something is balanced. But as I said earlier in this thread, stop isolating one tactic of class and looking at it in isolation. It's two simple questions (with difficult answers) 1) is KoBS balanced with SM/IB and 2) is Order balanced versus Destruction. If KoBS is not balanced with the other Order tanks, then action needs to be taken by either a) further nerfing the KoBS or b) buffing either or both other tanks. Depending which of the two actions should be taken can be determined by point 2) is Order balanced vs Destruction? Is Order is underperforming, then it is prolly a better idea to buff other tanks. If Order is overperforming then it is prolly a better idea to nerf KoBS. But I have no in this thread convinced me that Order is overperforming so that the KoBS needs more nerfs.

[dansari]

I will be completely honest. No one has convinced me, but my initial feeling is that it is too strong for being that low in the tree. For now I agree with, at least, moving it up.

Ah, yes, in that regard, I think *most* people in the thread agree with you.

Edit:

This is one of the things wrong with balancing this way. Apparently you do not need to be convince something is unbalanced, but now we have to convince something is balanced. But as I said earlier in this thread, stop isolating one tactic of class and looking at it in isolation. It's two simple questions (with difficult answers) 1) is KoBS balanced with SM/IB and 2) is Order balanced versus Destruction. If KoBS is not balanced with the other Order tanks, then action needs to be taken by either a) further nerfing the KoBS or b) buffing either or both other tanks. Depending which of the two actions should be taken can be determined by point 2) is Order balanced vs Destruction? Is Order is underperforming, then it is prolly a better idea to buff other tanks. If Order is overperforming then it is prolly a better idea to nerf KoBS. But I have no in this thread convinced me that Order is overperforming so that the KoBS needs more nerfs.

I see what you're saying, but I also think that you can have a discussion about a specific tactic or ability (less so) that is so good that everyone runs it (possibly overperforming), or in this instance where I think most people agree FM is too good for the investment taken to get it.

[Penril]

Right now, no one has convinced me that FM is balanced.
.

This is one of the things wrong with balancing this way. Apparently you do not need to be convince something is unbalanced, but now we have to convince something is balanced. .

Of course Sherlock. If I thought the proposal was about a skill that is perfectly balanced, i wouldn't move it to Discussions right? That's why "Declined" exists.

Ah, yes, in that regard, I think *most* people in the thread agree with you.

It doesn't matter how many agree with me. All it takes is one guy with a proper argument, even if the other 99% disagree with him. But honestly, I haven't seen good arguments (from any side) in this thread yet.

[dansari]

Ah, yes, in that regard, I think *most* people in the thread agree with you.

It doesn't matter how many agree with me. All it takes is one guy with a proper argument, even if the other 99% disagree with him. But honestly, I haven't seen good arguments (from any side) in this thread yet.

Sure, I just meant that I think less people will be able to create a strong enough argument to keep it where it is as opposed to moving it up the tree.

[Penril]

Have more faith in me. I know everyone who posts here (it is usually the same people in every thread). I think I know who has a valid point and who is just complaining.

[zumos2]

Spoiler:

Right now, no one has convinced me that FM is balanced.
.

This is one of the things wrong with balancing this way. Apparently you do not need to be convince something is unbalanced, but now we have to convince something is balanced. .

Of course Sherlock. If I thought the proposal was about a skill that is perfectly balanced, i wouldn't move it to Discussions right? That's why "Declined" exists.

YOU think yes, sure. But still if you want something to be changed, the base standpoint should still be that it is balanced and you have to convince others it is not.

Also I will quote the rules again:

Topics formatted appropriately and supplying evidence for a particular viewpoint should be moved to Discussion regardless of the moderators' personal opinion about the topic. Their role is only to ensure that the likes "omfg sorc op pls nerf" don't make it to a discussion. If rejecting a topic, a post should be made.

Emphasis on "regardless of the moderators' personal opinion". So you have to look at the evidence, which was not given at all by the OP. He didn't explain anything, didn't put the tactic in the bigger picture of the KoBS, Order tanks or Destro vs Order balance. He literally just described what the tactic does. Yet you moved it because of your personal opinion.

I don't have to explain to you why I move a proposal or not. I already said rules have changed and will update them soon. If you have further issues take it to PMs.