Return of Reckoning

Chilling Gusts is perfectly fine as it is. It is not meant to be an integral part of the AoE spec; in fact it doesn't have a spot in it (not enough points even at rr70 if you go for something like this http://www.ror.builders/career/sorcerer ... 28,5426&t=).

CG is good as a support tactic in a ST spec (no, i'm not talking about the extra damage on Chillwind lol). Everyone agrees this is the basis for sorc ST spec: http://www.ror.builders/career/sorcerer ... 18,5415&t=

With 4 points left at rr70, you have a few options:

- Echo of Power + Shades of Death for more ST damage (I guess? SoD sucks imho).
- Gloom of night + CG for more AoE pressure

"But Penril, GoN + CG won' kill ****!!!". And I agree with you... against a proper group that cleanses constantly, heals all the party members, etc. etc. But this is Pugland, and in ORvR there are a BAZILLION times you will run into crap warbands, all clumped together in a tight place. Yeah, i am talking about keep fights.

So how does this spec work? You put GoN on someone (preferably someone who won't be cleansed, or someone covered up with other dots already), spam a few IS on as many people as possible, and then do your ST rotation on your true, real enemies. And yeah, GoN + the extra damage from CG won't kill anyone by itself, but you are helping your realm with extra AoE damage while you still pew pew with your main ST rotation (and losing pretty much NOTHING of it in that spec; in fact, since CG also affects CW your ST rotation will sometimes hit for a little bit more than usual).

Again: GoN/IS every now and then on the poor pugs while you do your serious rotation on serious enemies. That is what CG is for.

TL;DR: CG is fine. If anything, you should focus on Tapping the Dark or Recovering Energy (now those tactics REALLY suck).

dansari wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:25 pm

Aurandilaz wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:13 pm However, 8 Sorcs is something no one runs because just how inefficient it becomes when properly countered, realistically 3-5 Sorcs per organized bombing warband, because you want other AoE classes like magus and mara as well.

Sure, but realistically you're also going to have adds who might also have sorcs who are also running the undefendable aoe dots.

And at that point when you start stacking adds, the resulting fight is 9 out of 10 times won by the side with more adds because at some point it just becomes a numbergame, who brings more people and gets enemy to lose more people faster - and compared to other aoe abilities IS is not something that kills fast.
And say you have 10 aoe Sorcs bombing same area, they would melt any target with either 10x Infernal Wave or 10 x Gloomburst or 10 x WOP, as when you stack enough many dps against something it tends to die regardless of what ability is used to complete the kill.

Point is, in possible scenarios where you bring many many many Sorcs to cause a massive IS buildup, the same number in itself is enough to cause such high bomb potential with other available abilities and get kills faster that way.

Penril wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:53 pm Chilling Gusts is perfectly fine as it is. It is not meant to be an integral part of the AoE spec; in fact it doesn't have a spot in it (not enough points even at rr70 if you go for something like this http://www.ror.builders/career/sorcerer ... 28,5426&t=).

CG is good as a support tactic in a ST spec (no, i'm not talking about the extra damage on Chillwind lol). Everyone agrees this is the basis for sorc ST spec: http://www.ror.builders/career/sorcerer ... 18,5415&t=

With 4 points left at rr70, you have a few options:

- Echo of Power + Shades of Death for more ST damage (I guess? SoD sucks imho).
- Gloom of night + CG for more AoE pressure

"But Penril, GoN + CG won' kill ****!!!". And I agree with you... against a proper group that cleanses constantly, heals all the party members, etc. etc. But this is Pugland, and in ORvR there are a BAZILLION times you will run into crap warbands, all clumped together in a tight place. Yeah, i am talking about keep fights.

So how does this spec work? You put GoN on someone (preferably someone who won't be cleansed, or someone covered up with other dots already), spam a few IS on as many people as possible, and then do your ST rotation on your true, real enemies. And yeah, GoN + the extra damage from CG won't kill anyone by itself, but you are helping your realm with extra AoE damage while you still pew pew with your main ST rotation (and losing pretty much NOTHING of it in that spec).

Again: GoN/IS every now and then on the poor pugs while you do your serious rotation on serious enemies. That is what CG is for.

TL;DR: CG is fine. If anything, you should focus on Tapping the Dark or Recovering Energy (now those tactics REALLY suck).

You are the only person ever that I've seen recommend using CG and your argument boils to it being somehow effective during NA pug vs pug bashing at keep fights...
The spec you recommend is a hybrid spec which hurts your actual ST burst spec and if you were to run it as part of an AoE build it would be even more bad choice.

The RvR environment must be truly different at NA times I guess, because I cannot fathom how my Sorc would be helping my realm during EU times running with a subpar spec for massive keep fights.

It's an 11 point tactic that currently is a lottery within a lottery within a lottery and even then if it procs does blergh dmg.

Not all tactics are meant to be useful against all enemies/setups all the time. You seem to want to buff CG so it becomes a cornerstone of a sorc AoE spec for warband vs warband in the elite pro EU timezone. Nah man, sorry but that is akin to asking for a Menace buff so it is effective against 6-man groups.

CG has its place and it is not in warbands. It is in a 6-man group focusing on ST damage who does mainly ORvR pugstomping the zerg, and keep defense is a big part of it. As I said, you occasionally throw those AoE skills to put a little bit of pressure (small as it may be) on the enemy pugs, while the warbands from your realm do the warband vs warband tango and you continue doing your 6-man thing (focusing a single target).

I really don't care if you get it but that's how it is.

Aurandilaz wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:14 pm
The spec you recommend is a hybrid spec which hurts your actual ST burst spec and if you were to run it as part of an AoE build it would be even more bad choice.

As i said, it doesn't have a place in a AoE build so no i would never consider running it.

And you don't really lose **** on your ST burst damage. Not if you have the correct gear/buffs.

Aurandilaz wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:45 pm

Spoiler:

What Supreme range? 65 feet IS DoT vs 40 feet FlameBreath direct dmg + Dot? (FlameBreath being 6 sec shorter and doing more dmg alltogether because Funnel Power (extra proc check for Flames of Rhuin) and Flashfire DoT proc check)
Or 65 feet base Infernal Wave, vs cast on move 80 feet FieryBlast? (with cross mirroring being between IW + IS +GloomOfNight vs FieryBlast + Detonate + FlameBreath somehow kinda mirroring each others functions)
Oh you could run tactic giving IW boost to 80 feet, its not needed and mostly helps you at pugfarming, but doesn't actually increase dmg or aid you otherwise, therefore not worth a mastery point, nor tactic slot.

SK vs FBB, both 80 feet, with FBB being on shorter CD and thus more often in rotation.
DC vs Anni, both 30 feet.
SP vs SE, both 30 feet. (again increase of radius from 30 to 40 feet just not worth tactic slot)

BW has option for 80 feet instacast Detonate, 80 feet instacast SpreadingFlames, Sorc could get GloomOfNight requiring standing still for 2 sec... rather skip mid tree and get ImpendingDoom for faster DarkMagic building.

And then both have access to 80 feet PoS/RoF (keep moving, shoot one tick or stay still to launch 2 ticks)

Both classes are perfectly viably for ranged bombing, with Sorc getting that 25 feet extra on IS compared to FlameBreath, with FlameBreath providing extra bomb juice from both FP+WF and giving double proc chance for FoR.

I can concede that 65ft IW is easier to use, but honestly its not that hard to fire a 80ft FieryBlast on the move with 1.5 sec cast time because as result you have higher base dmg + FP + WF - that effort of picking low disrupt target and then firing a far harder hitting ability than IW over longer distance is worth it.(it's even more lethal than 200 stronk IS dot ticks)

Your claim that BW is somehow losing to Sorc when it comes to ranged bombing is just not true, especially since you chose to forgot they have a spec for 100feet ranged moral bomb. Then again you play mostly Orderside, so I cannot expect you to have taken too often triple or quadruple BurningHeads and wondering how you exploded in 1 sec with no enemies nearby.

MAYBE, with ChillingGusts actually making IS into something that is considered a threat, Sorc may start catching BW in damage outputs. Currently with Sorc being far weaker at closer range bombing than BW, and still losing even in the ranged bombing comparison assuming the BW knows how to play.

Nah, I've been playing my sorc mostly in the last month, so you miss the point with that remark.

I don't see the disparity between the two, contrary to what you claim, that sorc is somehow 30% behind BW in damage output.
IW is far superior to Flashfire Fiery Blast in its current state due to quite a lot of setback it suffers on taking damage, often resulting in 2.5 sec casts on top of one more disrupt check(on target and on cleave targets).
It's unquestionably easier to execute, with no gaps due to setback and taunt interrupts, you can go through many more spells while BW still tries to pull of miserable FF proc. With heavier prime time lag, FF is very unreliable now and often not worth trying to pull off because of people flying all over the place, while sorc continues to do considerable damage from greater range behind your tank lane.

Idk why I'm even writing this stuff all over again, since I've already told all of it in my initial post. From what I've experienced both in premade wb and leading pugs, sorc currently is much more relaxing to play as well as efficient, just due to supreme range.
Meaning you have easier time positioning around, spreading Spikes dot from greater range, not relying on disrupts to even start your range damage, which has to go through one more disrupt check for Fiery Blast.

BW with less range has to be in front lane to deal damage. If it's Conflag spec with Backdraft, then yea, a bit more damage than sorc, less range as a drawback, nothing too considerable that has to be fixed asap, in my opinion.
Or BW goes FFB+BH, with much less base damage for aoe spells compared to sorc, so I assume you are just lying here saying sorc far weaker. Funnel Power here is mediocre at best, adding up to ~100 damage after resists and hitting you for about 70 back for each target, which is considerable drawback and quickly adds up, given that Dire Shielding+Discordant Fluctuation exist. All while having less points in aoe tree.
Burning Head is nice and all, but it's mostly a pug-bashing tool and I'm yet to see anyone successfully use it otherwise. "Competitive" wb engagements outside of keeps rarely last long enough to reach M4, even with sick AM pumping skills, which is a crutch in it of itself. And even they do last long, destro has plenty of tools to deal with order morals, ie mara drain. Sorc itself has Paralyzing Nightmare that decimates healers, who are unable to remove it without pretty much wasting M2.

Tbh, Sorc has a nice mixture of close range and long range bombing tools, neither too weak or too strong at both, out-ranges pure Conflag BW and out-damages Incinerate BW in aoe. I might even say that this versatility is whats good about it.
Maybe raw impact hit and overall damage was behind BW previously, but after that unjust FF nerf it's no longer the case. If lag and disrupt issues are added in to the whole picture, sorc is easier and better, at least for me.
And the only case where BW would outdamage sorc considerably is if all you do is spam during keep sieges Rain of Fire with Wildfire and Funnel Power, which surely beats raw Pit of Shades

Mez spec runs chilling gusts, and as far as I know he still runs it. He doesn't play much anymore, or I'd expect him to chime in here. He's the first person I saw recommend using the tactic in a thread years ago. I'm using it currently simply because i pug it a lot these days and swell of gloom ends up kicking your ass. WH pops for a free kill. I can't really put in my two cents, my sorc is only 39 and I have no frame of reference. I'm a Donny.

This tactic is not particularly valuable because:
1. Deals additional damage from 2 abilities only;
2. Deals mediocre damage(214 to unguarded target);
3. A chance to deal additional damage - 33% is quite decent, but when you consider that it works from dot ability, looks not so attractive(triggered 2 times in 15 seconds on average);
4. Does not depend on intelligence, critical hit chance, career mechanic.

Can't say I know the exact recipe for a good pie, but in my opinion you can try to do something like this:
1. Move Ice Spikes to destruction tree(optional, i think it should be there). You can probably swap it with Stricken Voices;
2. Move CG with some changes to 11 points destruction tree tactic slot;
3. Move Neverending Agony to 7 points destruction tree tactic slot;
4. Move Langthening Shadows to core tactics.
CG rework proposal: Every time the ability(direct damage) of the destruction tree hits an enemy, there is a 33% chance that the victim will suffer an additional damage (amount?). It should depend on intelligence, critical hit chance, career mechanic.

Faithfuly yours, Shooga.

Tosher85 wrote: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:13 am This tactic is not particularly valuable because:
1. Deals additional damage from 2 abilities only;
2. Deals mediocre damage(214 to unguarded target);
3. A chance to deal additional damage - 33% is quite decent, but when you consider that it works from dot ability, looks not so attractive(triggered 2 times in 15 seconds on average);
4. Does not depend on intelligence, critical hit chance, career mechanic.

Can't say I know the exact recipe for a good pie, but in my opinion you can try to do something like this:
1. Move Ice Spikes to destruction tree(optional, i think it should be there). You can probably swap it with Stricken Voices;
2. Move CG with some changes to 11 points destruction tree tactic slot;
3. Move Neverending Agony to 7 points destruction tree tactic slot;
4. Move Langthening Shadows to core tactics.
CG rework proposal: Every time the ability(direct damage) of the destruction tree hits an enemy, there is a 33% chance that the victim will suffer an additional damage (amount?). It should depend on intelligence, critical hit chance, career mechanic.

Faithfuly yours, Shooga.

Good points.

More constructive criticism like this, and less spec one-upping.