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[Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury

https://returnofreckoning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24431

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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:35 am
by Smellybelly
Yeah im sorry but comparing it to the one and only buff bot isnt part of the discussion. And trust me, i have played chosen for quite some time and being that essential buffbot is not very fun. You have your auras, the rest is just semi automated attack sequences and punts. Chosen and knights are (in my opinion) boring and as far as i understand it, subject to change.

I agree that the knight auras are overwhelmingly better, but thats not a reason why a completely different class should be better, it just means knights/chosens most likely will be changed at some point.

Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:14 am
by AxelF
Spoiler:
orillah wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:11 am Pls stop all this knight nonsense

Care to elaborate on that? I really don't want to derail this thread into a Knight v IB discussion, but in terms of viability and desirability/what they can bring to a group it's not even close. There's a reason every organised WB wants between 4 and 6 KoBS and maybe 1 IB (if any) and maybe 1 or 2 SM.

A typical 2H KoBS build for group play might be something like:

RoR.builders - Knight of the Blazing Sun

Brings:

AoE wounds debuff
AoE 10% defence chance debuff for 10 seconds
AoE snare with 100% uptime (3 target cap but 9 times out of 10 that's enough)
Super punt with reduced CD
On demand KD
AoE 10% crit chance increase on all enemies - permanent
Party wide strength buff - permanent
AoE strength debuff - permanent
Party wide toughness buff - permanent
AoE toughness debuff - permanent
Party wide all resist buff - permanent
AoE all resist debuff - permanent


A typical IB 2H build for group play might be something like:

RoR.builders - Ironbreaker

Brings:

On demand KD
Self and single target str buff for 20 seconds
Self and single target 10% crit chance increase for 10 seconds
Self and single target toughness buff for 20 seconds
Self and single target armour buff for 20 seconds
Self and single target 50 ini and 25% parry buff for 10 seconds
Self and single target magic damage shield for 10 seconds
Self and single target wep skill increase for 10 seconds
Self and single target corp resist increase for 20 seconds
Single target armour debuff
Single target 20% crit chance debuff (at max grudge)
Normal punt
Outgoing healdebuff

OR at rr40 you can drop either the ini and parry buff; or all of the crit chance increase, outgoing heal debuff and magic damage shield and pick up AoE snare (no target cap) with 50% uptime.


A typical SnB KoBS build for group play might be something like:

RoR.builders - Knight of the Blazing Sun

Lot's of variation around the two main tactics possible though

Brings:

Party wide 5% crit chance increase for 10s on block
Party wide 15% healing received increase - permanent
AoE stagger
Super punt OR AoE snare with 100% uptime
On demand KD
Party wide strength buff - permanent
AoE strength debuff - permanent
Party wide toughness buff - permanent
AoE toughness debuff - permanent
Party wide health and AP regen increase on defence


A typical SnB IB build for group play might be something like:

RoR.builders - Ironbreaker

Brings:

Self and single target str buff for 20 seconds
Self and single target 10% crit chance increase for 10 seconds
Self and single target toughness buff for 20 seconds
Self and single target armour buff for 20 seconds
Self and single target 50 ini and 25% parry buff for 10 seconds
Self and single target magic damage shield for 10 seconds
Self and single target wep skill increase for 10 seconds
Self and single target corp resist increase for 20 seconds
Single target armour debuff
Single target 20% crit chance debuff (at max grudge)
AoE snare (no target cap)
Normal punt
KD (requires parry/block)
Outgoing healdebuff



The trouble IB has is that all of its buffs apply to self and one other rather than party-wide, don't also have a debuff effect, usually require spending mechanic points, last for a limited duratiion and require a GCD to activate, meaning you can never have anywhere close to the full list available up at the same time. One of their few unique buffs that KoBS can't bring - armour buff - is made redundant by the almost mandatory use of armour pots.

The KoBS on the other hand brings permanent party-wide buffs and debuffs that require no GCD or mechanic management. Their high value means they also usually over write the IB's single target buffs, making them redundant.

An IB/SM just can't get anywhere close to the value that a KoBS brings to a party which is why they're mandatory in any organised group.

/end thread de-railment

edit

As you say Swagg, KoBS/Chosen aren't the most fun class to play, but it does mean you can just forget about buffing/de buffing and concentrate 100% on positioning, guard switching, cc'ing and dps. Plus the biggest issue is that it massively limits opportunities for people to play the tanks they enjoy in organised play.

Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:29 am
by charlysixb
I've been trying channeling on an IB 65RR ( still need some test with high str glass cannon setup ) The dmg is not bad but breaks the mechanic of melee dot hitter as Volgo mentioned earlier ). It is still very high in the tree and you still have other good sources of dmg like snare-heavy blow ( + cave in / earthshatter ) so you dont really need it for dakka dakka.
I can agree +10% critic of any type for you and your oathfriend is good at the position it is in the path of vengance but you've to think in a few cons of moving it up ( pros are different kind of setups ).
Ancestor's Fury is fairing badly if you compare it with things like Crimson Death ( i dont want to say this ability is OP, just comparation ). Anybody hittin' a guy with CD debuff will get the 10% critic, no matter the range, no matter if its in your group or even in your warband. It has a good dmg tooltip and its not single attack ( also have very good synergies with other classes )
It doesnt do any dmg plus you have already a str core buff ( wich is always up ), the range to buff your oathfriend is very small ( good luck trying to buff up RDPS or Healers in some situations ) so think it well before considering swap position with channeling.

Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:57 pm
by kmark101
All phsyical IB hits are still terrible, including GBF in it's new form.

When some ppl are posting I can't help but think that we play a completely different game or they base their "facts" on hitting lvl 30 squishies.

I tried out the new GBF and on average it hits an opponent for 130 damage per hit. It hit's chosens and blackguards for 30-40 damage per hit (on average). Highest crit on a chosen was 61 (!). Meanwhile a chosen's aura hits me for 80-100 damage passively. On Marauders, GBF hits them for 160-180 damage. Highest crit 195.

And so on. The damage on IB is terrible still, everyone mitigates everything we have except Earthshatter and Punishing blow. Because of that, 2h IB is a hinderance in any group play and only shines against solo squishies/lowlevels.

We need some tool to actually hurt a little bit those characters who fully gear up in armor talis (ie: everyone currently). GBF would be ideal if it would penetrate those armors a little bit more effectively.

Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:31 pm
by peterthepan3
No more tangents, or discussing other classes. Keep all comments relating to GBF.

Damage on IB isn't terrible, actually. I don't know why anyone would think so. It's incredibly good in the right hands.

Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:29 am
by Smellybelly
Torquemadra wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:27 pm
Smellybelly wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:34 am
Torquemadra wrote: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:35 pm

Or other, more attractive options in other trees could be nerfed or raised up trees, this blanket buff/turn to low hanging fruit/hide weaker/less attractive stuff higher in trees approach does little but raise one eyebrow......
Hi Torq! Do you have any alternative ideas that you are willing to share? In regards to switching around the other trees that is.
I get what your saying, people are more or less always biased when they voice their concerns and as lead developer/or just the guy in charge you have to take all such things into account. We are all very happy that the balance discussions are open and i do not presume to take anything for granted.

I sit here and look at the career builder though and it doesnt feel unreasonable to switch the crit buff with GBF. I feel GBF would fill a otherwise empty slot in the rotation of any 2h spec and it would better reflect how BG are forced to make choices in regards to parry focus or crit focus etc, you cant get everything in one spec.
As it stands atm a IB do get everything (Crit buff, Parry buff, Knockdown, AoE slow in a 6 man group) - ( http://www.ror.builders/career/ironbrea ... mm=&mt=&t= ) wich basically mean that you get "everything".
I guess it would be reasonably to switch brotherhood tree around if everyone goes for eartshatter (its a lovely skill) but i find myself asking "change it with what, or even why?" Switch Grumble and Mutter for earthshatter so you turn it away from premade groups? Wouldnt they just go for http://www.ror.builders/career/ironbrea ... mt=3780&t= instead then? Im just brainstormning here and i know we as a playerbase are not entitled to anything, just trying to discuss the skill trees
Always ideas, whats possible depending on tech is another matter.

To expand on what I said there are certain classes that have certain synergies that to make an ability "attractive" would be gamebreaking, a case in point is the WE and the most efficient damage output from holding onto the mechanic of frenzied mayhem. I cannot increase the value and attractiveness of WE finishers to a level which would rival that meta. I have a plan for WE to make the gameplay more interesting outside being a AW spambot but i need launcher fully functional.

Back to IB channel, "unfortunately" IB is a solid performer in any weapon configuration with great utility, damage and survivability, theres no way to make the channel attractive enough to break it free of current build choices and to choose GBF over them. Moving Cave In to 13 may do it because cave in is that good and given that its a KD with an after effect it should be at 13 anyway.

Make it undefendable? Increase armour penetration? These are huge balance concerns and could easily throw up unwelcome situations and "well that would have to give up something good to use it" isnt good enough.
I guess thats also an option, tbh i had not even considered it due to how extremely important it is for all tank specs to have access to a knockdown. For Knight/Chosen the knockdown is mandatory, not even a option to ignore it. BO have it more difficult to access a Knockdown but they fill another role then IB/BG (BG have the best KD without speccing for it, though with less dmg).
Not up to us to decide ofc but moving the KD ability would severerly hinder IB specs in my opinion.
I would rather, if it was a choice, move AF with GBF but leave GBF as is without adding more armor penetration or anything.
But i have voiced as much before.
Im happy we have the discussion at all.
Offtopic: The WE part is interesting, i hope you find some way to turn them away from AW spam. Its super annoying, super strong and most likely super boring for WE players

Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:42 am
by DokB
Cave-In “after effect” is simply extra damage on your target depending on how much Grudge you had when cast. I wouldn’t compare it to the other 13pt KD the tanks have (DYG/CW) which have direct benefits to your group in the form of reducing cooldowns/4 second immunities.

Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:32 am
by Osred
If you do end up switching GBF with CI (I really hope you dont for reasons as stated above), would you consider removing its GW requirement to match BG's channel.
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