[Shaman] Totally Un-viable?

[Fey]

Wow this thread has been taken over by people who clearly don't play shaman. Same story.

[Nabaro]

Shaman is good in a small gank paty. Has no quick\burst heal. Dies from one lion if not dressed in a top and dont heve armor tali. Great problems with AP. Now his mechanic is absolutely useless. The only way to play this is keep Hots on your main DPS at all times. What's terribly boring. DPS shaman fun, but only vs pug.

P.S. And by the way, all your hots and buffs are easily removed, enjoy.

[charlysixb]

Ok i will stop you in your shaman is good and ****...! well this class is , oh **** im already out of AP (5s fight)
Ok so now? IF U DON'T HAVE A DAMN GOB BRAIN don't play this class please. (sadly i have one :s)

Anyway im still , GOBBO FOR LIFE

Xddd Arni

[peterthepan3]

Dps shaman should always be paired with a magus or sorc for optimal results. I honestly can't see why it wouldn't work in the hands of a good player against all bar one/two order premades (and even then, in a good ranged comp, you could give a challenge).

It's a burstier version of the dps am, and should be played as such.

[ragafury]

Poor gobbo.

I'm leveling one atm. cr30/35 while having a zealot @ r40/rr50 Conq / Anni / bl.
Ask people how much they enjoy not getting healed.

The ap shortage is noticeable.
You can troll very good with sticky feetz.
I suck at managing detaunts + Kb though big time. Not as easy as it looks to make the magic happen.

But still, I guess at least I'm having fun with the class. x)

[BrockRiefenstahl]

I am always reading the phrase "in good hands". Does this refer to a player, that has pvp experience in all sort of MMOS, has played in the upper fields of multiple games and is above average? OR is the game balanced around the TOP2-3 players on the server? Because: MUH CLASS OP when we make it vaible for the ordinary upper segment of the server. Because 1-3 people become really good with their skillz, thats why class must not be fixed/buffed etc.?

I dont want to sound ignorant, but after a long break at RoR, seing the custom "in good hands" every thread, makes me curious.

Please define what is in good hands? If I have played for example Skyforge or WoW in Top ladder niveau and playing now war again, would this be considered a good player? I have no problems killing any random while levelling and overperform in SCs (this is not a brag) BUT I would never dare to compare myself to "good" or the top of the server. I really want some knowledge about what a player with "good hands" is. Because the game seems to be balanced exactly AROUND them!

[peterthepan3]

When I say 'in good hands', I mean in the hands of a player who: knows how to maximise their burst rotation to a milisecond (for example, in WoW you'd use quartz to know exactly when to cast next ability. amd you would also use a GCD tracker); knows how to utilise all of their skills in such a manner so that they are an asset to their team (knowing how/when to use the heal debuff, when to use ere we go - before a burst rotation, for example); knows the limitations of the DPS shaman (very reliant on getting toughness debuff up, reliant on having an elemental debuff up, reliant on squeezing as many casts & instas into as small a timestamp as possible), yet knows how to overcome them.

'In good hands' doesn't mean the top 2/3 on the server, but even if it did, if the top 2/3 of the server could make the class work - while the rest couldn't - it would simply mean that the remainder have to l2p! If you balance around the capabilities (or lack, thereof) of the 'majority' in a PvP game, then you end up with severely watered down brainless PvP that even a kid slamming his head into the keyboard could excel at.

There's a reason why 3.3.5 WoW is regarded by most as the best PVP expac ever in the game's history: on the whole, most of the classes were balanced and could compete in ranked arenas; but the learning curve was very high, you needed to be pretty skilled with your class to hit the higher ratings. None of this, however, negated from the fact that the classes could perform well - in the right hands!.

[BrockRiefenstahl]

Spoiler:

When I say 'in good hands', I mean in the hands of a player who: knows how to maximise their burst rotation to a milisecond (for example, in WoW you'd use quartz to know exactly when to cast next ability. amd you would also use a GCD tracker); knows how to utilise all of their skills in such a manner so that they are an asset to their team (knowing how/when to use the heal debuff, when to use ere we go - before a burst rotation, for example); knows the limitations of the DPS shaman (very reliant on getting toughness debuff up, reliant on having an elemental debuff up, reliant on squeezing as many casts & instas into as small a timestamp as possible), yet knows how to overcome them.

'In good hands' doesn't mean the top 2/3 on the server, but even if it did, if the top 2/3 of the server could make the class work - while the rest couldn't - it would simply mean that the remainder have to l2p! If you balance around the capabilities (or lack, thereof) of the 'majority' in a PvP game, then you end up with severely watered down brainless PvP that even a kid slamming his head into the keyboard could excel at.

There's a reason why 3.3.5 WoW is regarded by most as the best PVP expac ever in the game's history: on the whole, most of the classes were balanced and could compete in ranked arenas; but the learning curve was very high, you needed to be pretty skilled with your class to hit the higher ratings. None of this, however, negated from the fact that the classes could perform well - in the right hands!.

I understand your comment to a certain degree:
In WoW you have a proper UI with all informations needed to play properly. As far as I remember in this game arent even enemy castbars. The Buff Dbuff system is weird and in a warband, seriously, how can you track every single buff and debuff of multiple enemies? Maybe this is my L2P issue here, that my brain cant realise certain buffs debuffs in 0,3 seconds from switching 1 target to the next etc.

In good hands: So you are telling me there is only top (lets assume) 0,5% of the server and the rest? Seriously you want buff the classes for 0,5%?
Nobody wants that classes are balanced to a MAJORITY, but you have to define what a majority is. Dont you think the playerbase has more segments than 2 sectors? There is lower skilled casuals, medium skilled casuals, ordinary joe player, a little better than the casuals, good players, very good players with skillcap potential, top notch players and server best players. So, you want balance a class to the 0,50% instead of a playerfield that has approx 15% of the careers playerbase? --> In my understanding every game that has tried this failed. Because when in other games, certain classes (that certainly underperform if not played by god tier skilled players), is kind of weaker then the rest of the pack, the devs simply had to ACT. In RoR its on one side easier and on one side harder to handle the problem. At least there are not hundrets of outcries from reddit/mmo-champ and other big third party sites. The RoR player especially myself, must also remember, that we lay our time/love into the devs hands. Sometimes they can improve, sometimes not. No matter what the reasons are.

There's a reason why 3.3.5 WoW is regarded by most as the best PVP expac ever in the game's history: on the whole, most of the classes were balanced and could compete in ranked arenas; but the learning curve was very high, you needed to be pretty skilled with your class to hit the higher ratings. None of this, however, negated from the fact that the classes could perform well - in the right hands!

Your WoW example is not true at all. I give you an example: I was a very good Elemental shaman, gimping around with my partners 2k+ rating, levelled a Hunter for the lulz equipped it in 1 day from catchup system, hit 2,4k the next day with room to improve lol. And I did not even had that much knowledge of the class. No mate this argument is totally invalide. There are always classes that under and overperform, thats the cycle of fotm balance.

I could not care less about shaman buffs or nerfs/fixes, but to me it seems wrong with this elitist thinking of a class should be balanced around the very top. And if a class is too strong if it is played by 5 certain players of a server, than it should be, let them have their fun. Those players will always perform. I hope you understand what I mean. Only because fear of making a class to strong for 5 people, should not mean: Hell no, this class could be to strong, but let have class xy their totally blatant OP-ness for over a year. That is contradictive and hypocrite.
Also, I am more of a fan of smaller tweaks in numbers than bruteforce implementing/deleting changes/skills (overbuff/nerfing) a class, call it test and never go back if it ceirtainly did not work out so well. Hopefully RoR gets this Launcher soon. I am sure devs could make awesome new stuff when they got it done. (But maybe I also misunderstood that part a bit, because I am really a huge noob at programming and its languages).

Edit: I really respect your expierience, you have played multiple classes in a more competetive manner.
But on this one point, I cant totally comprehend your massage.


Greetings, Brock

[peterthepan3]

In good hands: So you are telling me there is only top (lets assume) 0,5% of the server and the rest? Seriously you want buff the classes for 0,5%?
Nobody wants that classes are balanced to a MAJORITY, but you have to define what a majority is. Dont you think the playerbase has more segments than 2 sectors? There is lower skilled casuals, medium skilled casuals, ordinary joe player, a little better than the casuals, good players, very good players with skillcap potential, top notch players and server best players. So, you want balance a class to the 0,50% instead of a playerfield that has approx 15% of the careers playerbase? --> In my understanding every game that has tried this failed. Because when in other games, certain classes (that certainly underperform if not played by god tier skilled players), is kind of weaker then the rest of the pack, the devs simply had to ACT. In RoR its on one side easier and on one side harder to handle the problem. At least there are not hundrets of outcries from reddit/mmo-champ and other big third party sites. The RoR player especially myself, must also remember, that we lay our time/love into the devs hands. Sometimes they can improve, sometimes not. No matter what the reasons are.

The thing is mate, RoR is an incredibly easy game to play. If you've actually played an Elemental Shaman to a 2.2k+ rating in 3.3.5 (as you say you have), you'll agree with me. No focus macros, not many interrupts, not keeping track of enemy casts, etc. So when I say 'in good hands', I mean anyone that can actually use the class well. If you didn't already know, the majority of people in the game (and this isn't meant insidiously or to grief) are pretty casual and don't care much for self-improvement. The environment is completely different to WoW arenas.

I am a firm believer that if a class can be demonstrated to perform well in a competitive environment, by a competent player, then the class is okay. If you could bring a DPS shaman into a 6v6 against competent/equal-skilled players, and make it work on a regular basis, then I would say the DPS shaman is functioning perfectly well in a group-based environment (aka the foundation of the game).

I do agree that there are a huge range of skillsets people possess in any MMO, but what do you propose? Balancing around lower skilled casuals? The PvP would be dumbed down to silly levels if that were the case. I honestly believe that, as it stands now, RoR is a very easy game to come to grips with - if people are willing to invest a bit and learn from their mistakes.

Other PVPers, such as Dalgri, would probably agree with me. When you play other pvp mmos/mobas, you see how easy RoR is to 'excel' at.

Your WoW example is not true at all. I give you an example: I was a very good Elemental shaman, gimping around with my partners 2k+ rating, levelled a Hunter for the lulz equipped it in 1 day from catchup system, hit 2,4k the next day with room to improve lol. And I did not even had that much knowledge of the class. No mate this argument is totally invalide. There are always classes that under and overperform, thats the cycle of fotm balance.

Elemental shaman/destro lock was literally one of the top 3 2s comps in 3.3.5, bro xD. Yes, it was hard to play (I can only recall 2 elemental shamans - both on live and private servers - who actually shocked me by how good they were, knowing when to root/hex/heal/LoS/form etc) - but that wasn't what my point pertained to. I am talking about the balance 3.3.5 achieved. I agree that some classes were harder to play to the same level - and the same is true here in RoR (DPS Healers have to put in a lot more work to fill in for a DPS, a BG/IB will have the odds stacked against them if they wish to replace a SM/BO as the DPS tank, etc).

I could not care less about shaman buffs or nerfs/fixes, but to me it seems wrong with this elitist thinking of a class should be balanced around the very top. And if a class is too strong if it is played by 5 certain players of a server, than it should be, let them have their fun. Those players will always perform. I hope you understand what I mean. Only because fear of making a class to strong for 5 people, should not mean: Hell no, this class could be to strong, but let have class xy their totally blatant OP-ness for over a year. That is contradictive and hypocrite.

Such a shame, we were having a good conversation up to this point but then you had to go and say the e word . Why must competent play of one's class always be equated to this preconceived notion of 'elitism'?

Again - the game is incredibly easy. You can learn to play a DPS shaman in a few hours, especially if you are coming from a WoW arenas background (seriously how are you finding RoR hard in comparison =P). I recall a few decent DPS shamans but most of them have gone away for the time being. Point is anyone can make any class shine in this game, there is very little competition, most people are casual which allows for unorthodox/'Mickey Mouse' comps (as we call them) to shine.


PS: Not trying to be rude or condescending at all man. I agree with a lot of you what you said, in theory, but I don't think RoR is so complex that only 1/2 people could excel at a class. If a class is unpopular here, it's either because: a) it's bad; or b) people just haven't really bothered to try to learn the class. (This was evident when enigma set the standard for 6v6 meta with the SM/BO, whereas up to that point most people had deemed the classes trash)

[BrockRiefenstahl]

Spoiler:

In good hands: So you are telling me there is only top (lets assume) 0,5% of the server and the rest? Seriously you want buff the classes for 0,5%?
Nobody wants that classes are balanced to a MAJORITY, but you have to define what a majority is. Dont you think the playerbase has more segments than 2 sectors? There is lower skilled casuals, medium skilled casuals, ordinary joe player, a little better than the casuals, good players, very good players with skillcap potential, top notch players and server best players. So, you want balance a class to the 0,50% instead of a playerfield that has approx 15% of the careers playerbase? --> In my understanding every game that has tried this failed. Because when in other games, certain classes (that certainly underperform if not played by god tier skilled players), is kind of weaker then the rest of the pack, the devs simply had to ACT. In RoR its on one side easier and on one side harder to handle the problem. At least there are not hundrets of outcries from reddit/mmo-champ and other big third party sites. The RoR player especially myself, must also remember, that we lay our time/love into the devs hands. Sometimes they can improve, sometimes not. No matter what the reasons are.

The thing is mate, RoR is an incredibly easy game to play. If you've actually played an Elemental Shaman to a 2.2k+ rating in 3.3.5 (as you say you have), you'll agree with me. No focus macros, not many interrupts, not keeping track of enemy casts, etc. So when I say 'in good hands', I mean anyone that can actually use the class well. If you didn't already know, the majority of people in the game (and this isn't meant insidiously or to grief) are pretty casual and don't care much for self-improvement. The environment is completely different to WoW arenas.

I am a firm believer that if a class can be demonstrated to perform well in a competitive environment, by a competent player, then the class is okay. If you could bring a DPS shaman into a 6v6 against competent/equal-skilled players, and make it work on a regular basis, then I would say the DPS shaman is functioning perfectly well in a group-based environment (aka the foundation of the game).

Okay I got it

I do agree that there are a huge range of skillsets people possess in any MMO, but what do you propose? Balancing around lower skilled casuals? The PvP would be dumbed down to silly levels if that were the case. I honestly believe that, as it stands now, RoR is a very easy game to come to grips with - if people are willing to invest a bit and learn from their mistakes.

No, not the lower end, but as I said for the upper 15%, on the contrary, how to define that. I understand its a fine line between those measures. Maybe I am an utopian here

Spoiler:

Other PVPers, such as Dalgri, would probably agree with me. When you play other pvp mmos/mobas, you see how easy RoR is to 'excel' at.

Your WoW example is not true at all. I give you an example: I was a very good Elemental shaman, gimping around with my partners 2k+ rating, levelled a Hunter for the lulz equipped it in 1 day from catchup system, hit 2,4k the next day with room to improve lol. And I did not even had that much knowledge of the class. No mate this argument is totally invalide. There are always classes that under and overperform, thats the cycle of fotm balance.

Spoiler:

Elemental shaman/destro lock was literally one of the top 3 2s comps in 3.3.5, bro xD. Yes, it was hard to play (I can only recall 2 elemental shamans - both on live and private servers - who actually shocked me by how good they were, knowing when to root/hex/heal/LoS/form etc) - but that wasn't what my point pertained to. I am talking about the balance 3.3.5 achieved. I agree that some classes were harder to play to the same level - and the same is true here in RoR (DPS Healers have to put in a lot more work to fill in for a DPS, a BG/IB will have the odds stacked against them if they wish to replace a SM/BO as the DPS tank, etc).

Never played that comp. I barely ever tested out FotM comps in general, not because I disliked them, but I was playing with people I liked as persons. And when they play a subpar class, than I dont switch my "friend" because his choice (in fact, I really hated this slutty behavior in other MMOS, because people get way to elitist and misbehave for their personal profit)
For Me WoW was never really balanced. at the end of WotlK it was a bit better then from there on, but also BC had its good times.
For me it is a riddle, how devs can let something blatantly broken in a game for month' (or even a year), until the outrage is so big and a loss in players, than they act.

Spoiler:

I could not care less about shaman buffs or nerfs/fixes, but to me it seems wrong with this elitist thinking of a class should be balanced around the very top. And if a class is too strong if it is played by 5 certain players of a server, than it should be, let them have their fun. Those players will always perform. I hope you understand what I mean. Only because fear of making a class to strong for 5 people, should not mean: Hell no, this class could be to strong, but let have class xy their totally blatant OP-ness for over a year. That is contradictive and hypocrite.

Such a shame, we were having a good conversation up to this point but then you had to go and say the e word . Why must competent play of one's class always be equated to this preconceived notion of 'elitism'?

I am sorry, I did not want to call you an elitist, I know you care very much about the game and comunity in general, to me the sentences just felt, like a: Git gud people. Maybe I should take more time to write such things Was not meant as an insult.

Again - the game is incredibly easy. You can learn to play a DPS shaman in a few hours, especially if you are coming from a WoW arenas background (seriously how are you finding RoR hard in comparison =P). I recall a few decent DPS shamans but most of them have gone away for the time being. Point is anyone can make any class shine in this game, there is very little competition, most people are casual which allows for unorthodox/'Mickey Mouse' comps (as we call them) to shine.

I never said RoR is hard per se The only thing where I really have trouble is, that there are so many characters rippling around and many buffs and debuffs going on. But perhaps, I am just rusty after a year of Path of Exile, where I dont need to check permanently buffs and debuffs.

PS: Not trying to be rude or condescending at all man. I agree with a lot of you what you said, in theory, but I don't think RoR is so complex that only 1/2 people could excel at a class. If a class is unpopular here, it's either because: a) it's bad; or b) people just haven't really bothered to try to learn the class. (This was evident when enigma set the standard for 6v6 meta with the SM/BO, whereas up to that point most people had deemed the classes trash)

[/quote]
I think you have a much better experience with the server than me, therefore, I have nothing to add to this, I believe that as it stands.

Hopefully I am soon 40/40 and see you ingame. But if you are the enemy, at our first meet and greet, I will be a bit mad, because I will certainly realise, that I have a far way to go and L2P have a good day.