Bring it on (Choppa ability)

[Grock]

I read, read and still not sure what your idea is.

Which one? OP's?

I think before ability receives any love, the whole implementation thing should be looked into. If it stays as is, yeah... do all the fancy stuff with it, idc. If it gets changed to the live implementation I'd strongly vouch against tampering with it, as it'd then have its proper, albeit niche* use.

That niche can be expanded without causing any hurt, though.
Having it as sort of anti-kiting ability is a decent use i suppose, but without changing the way ICD works it is pretty useless when you attacked by two or more enemies and as long as it doesn't proc on defended attacks any parry/disrupt/dodge stacking reduces its effect and it becomes just an unfair HP trade which gives no advantage to Slayer/Choppa and will only be useful in situations where you just can't attack the target at all (vs ranged, vs 100% parry morale, etc) which is way too niche for rank 40 ability

Allowing it to proc on defended hits and changing the way ICD works will just make it more reliable and consistent in that niche.

Adding extra avoidance for the duration of effect will make it actually useful outside of that specific niche and turn it into flexible, reliable and effective tool worthy of "rank 40" ability, like other classes have

[Arteker616]

I dont know if people will put "more" into avoidance, in this day and age by the time you reach T4 no one walks around really with out maxed deft defender

For choppa is very dangerous run max deft defender , u will trigger flashfire and eat fireball.

options i like.

1: turn it into a channeled defensive for ranged attacks similar to wall of darting steel.
2: up the dmg and remove icd and make it works agaisnt any attack.

[Darosh]

1: turn it into a channeled defensive for ranged attacks similar to wall of darting steel.
2: up the dmg and remove icd and make it works agaisnt any attack.

1: Yeah, ... kill the one thing that the skillceiling on SLA/CHO revolves around: postioning - general awareness -, and discount the sustain you get with a group ~ snare immunity, charge, WoDS-esque on-demand and baseline skill combined with all the goodies a group brings, nothing could go wrong. Aside from that, you have such a skill already - gated behind morale, for good reason.

2: Up the damage AND remove the ICD AND make it work against any attack?
The first wouldn't take into account FM on SLA, the second would break it in conjunction with the first (no ICD = more damage) - the third would be overkill with the other things, if you really mean any attack and not just abilities.

[Arteker616]

1: turn it into a channeled defensive for ranged attacks similar to wall of darting steel.
2: up the dmg and remove icd and make it works agaisnt any attack.

1: Yeah, ... kill the one thing that the skillceiling on SLA/CHO revolves around: postioning - general awareness -, and discount the sustain you get with a group ~ snare immunity, charge, WoDS-esque on-demand and baseline skill combined with all the goodies a group brings, nothing could go wrong. Aside from that, you have such a skill already - gated behind morale, for good reason.

2: Up the damage AND remove the ICD AND make it work against any attack?
The first wouldn't take into account FM on SLA, the second would break it in conjunction with the first (no ICD = more damage) - the third would be overkill with the other things, if you really mean any attack and not just abilities.

Slayers and choppas allready are prone to a total disvantage agaisnt any mdps in game due to broken mechanic, being in group or not . this broken mechanic even make **** harder when enemy has a strong rdps force.
The reason slayers choppas are going down in group setting for a long while now is because the threshold to keep em up is way higher than any other mdps in game .

in the case of choppa is even worse as order even has more ranged CC tools than destru has . positioning and awarenes not gonna save u from a rkd , any choppa or slayer doing groups or organized playing will tell you u dont use charge as gape closer u do it use it as scape tool .

U fail to give any valid reason why bring it on and slayer could not be turned into wods style channeled ability, u just fall back to same logic organized blablablablabla .
The general idea is to improve a ability wich see 0 usage in live and here , wh we got his share of skill similar to this and keep useful lvl 40 skills for scape or even cc , maras wls got pulls wich enable them to controll the battlefield without having to actualy endure the worst of rdps without the need of a 6 man to even remotely work.

Why choppas slayers cannot have the same.

[TenTonHammer]

Yeah, ... kill the one thing that the skillceiling on SLA/CHO revolves around: postioning - general awareness

this is not something that is not AT ALL inherently unique to them but rather the baseline expectation/requirement for ever class in the game

Choppa and slayers "skill" comes from rage management and knowing just how far you can push this glass cannon class they suffer in this armor stacking rdps meta and only exist in groups because of Wl/mara armor debuff

[Toldavf]

I would like to point out to those arguing for a channel that ups avoidance that something similar to what they would like was already tried on this server and it was an over buff that was swiftly reverted. Wrecking ball and whirling axe where meh skills but the hinge disrupt bonus they briefly provided was kinda op in rvr.

[Penril]

And I would like to point out that we are NOT discussing a channel that buffs Avoidance. We are discussing OP's proposal.

If someone wants Avoidance buffs, go make your own proposal.

[Reesh]

I do not agree with last post of Darosh, same as Arteker616 and TenTonHammer - they've shown valid points that I agree with.
With heavy rdps surroundings and RvR especially, SL/CH requires a 40r skill to be on par with those of WL/Mara and WH/WE in terms of utility. It's current implementation makes that there's less and less SL/CH players, as running that class is not an valid option outside a proper premade - and even if, running in RvR is still one of the worst options possible (outside of full wb maybe).

In terms of ease of coding I agree with OPs proposal as a 1st step to make this somewhat usable, but deep down the line those skills need more work.

Regarding past discussion..
For testing purposes, I don't think that channeled 100% disrupt/dodge (or 50-75% dodge/disrupt/parry) won't be op by any chance, as it can be countered easily.
Also, there would be a drawback to using that skill either way - while channeling and in combat your rage is constantly increasing, up to red meter. Knockdown SL/CH close to the end and make short work of him, as he'll be in red zone lying on the ground.

Either that, or making it into some sort of mobility tool, as besides charge those classes are pretty much snails, without the possibility of controlling the field as WL/Mara, WE/WH does.

So, either I or someone else will make another proposal about making it into avoidance tool - but still, we don't know what does staff thinks about that.

[Darosh]

Spoiler:

I do not agree with last post of Darosh, same as Arteker616 and TenTonHammer - they've shown valid points that I agree with.
With heavy rdps surroundings and RvR especially, SL/CH requires a 40r skill to be on par with those of WL/Mara and WH/WE in terms of utility. It's current implementation makes that there's less and less SL/CH players, as running that class is not an valid option outside a proper premade - and even if, running in RvR is still one of the worst options possible (outside of full wb maybe).

In terms of ease of coding I agree with OPs proposal as a 1st step to make this somewhat usable, but deep down the line those skills need more work.

Regarding past discussion..
For testing purposes, I don't think that channeled 100% disrupt/dodge (or 50-75% dodge/disrupt/parry) won't be op by any chance, as it can be countered easily.
Also, there would be a drawback to using that skill either way - while channeling and in combat your rage is constantly increasing, up to red meter. Knockdown SL/CH close to the end and make short work of him, as he'll be in red zone lying on the ground.

Either that, or making it into some sort of mobility tool, as besides charge those classes are pretty much snails, without the possibility of controlling the field as WL/Mara, WE/WH does.

So, either I or someone else will make another proposal about making it into avoidance tool - but still, we don't know what does staff thinks about that.

Written this before Penril chimed in regards to avoidance, might aswell drop it and tag it as offtopic:

Spoiler:

this is not something that is not AT ALL inherently unique to them but rather the baseline expectation/requirement for ever class in the game

Choppa and slayers "skill" comes from rage management and knowing just how far you can push this glass cannon class they suffer in this armor stacking rdps meta and only exist in groups because of Wl/mara armor debuff

The first thing goes hand in hand with the second ~ aside from that, I've hinted at it earlier on, if you add more stuff to the class that tackles what comes about due to this, you are basically going for a ducttape approach of likes of Mythic, who instead of changing flawed systems choose to add more actives and passives to keep it in check.

But truth be told, with a group the above is an annoyance but still workable ~ even though it turns you into a ticking bomb as larger the scale gets in which you fight, without the pewpew:
You already ragedump in the process of using some of your utility and avoid directdamage moreso than anything remotely related to resist (which are already easily debuffed); you cannot avoid the application of dots in red (e.g. WoP etc). If you try to do so you'll lose most of your tools (in whatever form they come, utility or raw dps), if you don't the moment you have exhausted all the other actives (cleanse cloak, healer cleanses, CW, ...) you just blow up regardless. It makes little to no difference whether you actually minded your career mechanic or not, given the amount of kinda-true damage you take (by virtue of being pretty much naked at the time of dot application) is unsustainable regardless of how well you position, how furiously your tanks dance around you with HtL and how furiously your healers hammer into their keyboards.
There are better ways to maintain a relatively stable, albeit heavily group dependant class experiene and turn it into a less clunky thing, than to add another layer of 60s CD dumbfire oh-****-buttons ~

TLDR:
If active avoidance abilities are handed out to more classes as somewhat baseline just to battle rdps or whatever, you might aswell turn it into a RR active like CW and RD.

On topic:
Could we have a word as to whether the current implementation of R/BIO is what the discussion is based on, or whether the very implementation is up to debate?
In other words, are we arguing about an ability that with its current iteration is <completly> useless (if its just something for meleerange...given the amount of drawback, I agree ~ whats the point of it) or about an ability that could have and see <some> use with a minor change to it's triggers rather than other traits (ICD,damage,...)?

[Penril]

We are discussing theses skills in their current implementation. You guys can:

a) Disagree with OP, explaining why the issues he mentioned don't exist, or
b) Agree with the OP, in which case you stay silent until someone tries to debunk him.

You can add small tweaks of your own to his proposal. Example: "Yes, do everything OP said but also increase the damage by X% because Y".

What you CAN'T do is make a new proposal that is entirely different from what OP said. Example: "I would make it an Avoidance buff instead". If you think it should have a different effect, then make a new proposal on a new thread.