Considering the single target Magus post the changes to Bolt of Change

[Whitesands]

Following up on my last post. The argument being made is the single target magus is not viable. It lacks the burst and threat potential of other DPS. In response to the Developer's question on providing situational examples I put forward the simple thought experiment: if one is putting together a group, would one prefer to bring a single target focus Magus or a different (R)DPS option? I think it is clear no one would think the magus is the preferred choice. The surrounding posts from the community support the thesis: returning the 5 second cool down to Bolt of Change makes the Magus (and Snipe for Engi) competitive. Given making each mastery viable is the ultimate goal and a simple solution to make the single target magus viable is to return BoC to the 5 second cool down, why not move forward with the change?


If the return of the Bolt of Change 5 second cool down is not going to be done, the ability should be returned to its original Mastery Line position, since the justification for the move was tied to the 5 second cool down to begin with.

[Karast]

I go back and forth on this argument when it comes to 5s vs 10s cast times on BoC / Snipe. I am not a fan of the super range, and with 5s I did agree that it was a problem.

But I am not in the agreement that 5s BoC is going to be enough to really change the ST spec into something more viable.

Magus has it a little better thanks to magical damage, and not having a wasted stat like WS, and having the crit tactic in the ST tree but even then it is much harder to justify a group spot on destro side then order side when you are trying to compete with things like marauders or SH's. The lack of a heal debuff is pretty major when you consider group comps, and time to target.

I have been feeling this a lot on both my engi and my magus. When you get into the real tougher fights, against good players who know what they are doing, it becomes vital to have multiple heal debuffs. Outgoing and incoming, and often times due to cleansing you want a career that can reapply quickly, or just double coverage to ensure up time. One of the reason people are liking SH's right now in premades. I don't like, and I am not advocating for more heal debuffs to be added, I am just saying that there is a very clear line between the haves and have nots.

I can see where the 5s cooldown will help in small scale roaming, in pug scenarios, but in the harder fights isn't it more of a band-aid than a real fix? Is this really going to make more pre-mades run ST maguses? If not, is this the change that really needs to happen?

[Whitesands]

I go back and forth on this argument when it comes to 5s vs 10s cast times on BoC / Snipe. I am not a fan of the super range, and with 5s I did agree that it was a problem.

But I am not in the agreement that 5s BoC is going to be enough to really change the ST spec into something more viable.

Magus has it a little better thanks to magical damage, and not having a wasted stat like WS, and having the crit tactic in the ST tree but even then it is much harder to justify a group spot on destro side then order side when you are trying to compete with things like marauders or SH's. The lack of a heal debuff is pretty major when you consider group comps, and time to target.

I have been feeling this a lot on both my engi and my magus. When you get into the real tougher fights, against good players who know what they are doing, it becomes vital to have multiple heal debuffs. Outgoing and incoming, and often times due to cleansing you want a career that can reapply quickly, or just double coverage to ensure up time. One of the reason people are liking SH's right now in premades. I don't like, and I am not advocating for more heal debuffs to be added, I am just saying that there is a very clear line between the haves and have nots.

I can see where the 5s cooldown will help in small scale roaming, in pug scenarios, but in the harder fights isn't it more of a band-aid than a real fix? Is this really going to make more pre-mades run ST maguses? If not, is this the change that really needs to happen?

Thanks for your post. I don't think one wants to commit the error of making the good the enemy of the perfect. Does the return to the 5 second cool down solve all issues related to the class? No. It does not. Does the return of the 5 second cool down allow the magus/engi to have more burst? Yes. More burst means more killing power. More killing power means the single target magus is more aligned to what it is supposed to be. When the change was made back in Dec. I was open to experimenting. Time has passed, and it is clear the 10 cool down is a mistake. Per the range: I didn't see this as a real issue. It gave the magus/engi something distinct to each class and added value for their side. The two classes match up against each other, so there is parity and finally, it takes a long bloody time of being immobile before the max range can apply. I think the complaints that Azarael originally cited were most likely tied to people shocked they were getting killed by magi. The magi and engi were so long the bottom tier of classes that certain assumptions had taken hold and the complainers were unprepared for magi/engi that could be dangerous. DPS classes that are seen as dangerous is what one wants.

[peterthepan3]

Not to blow my own trumpet, but 5 second boc really did allow Magus to be viable: I used it in 6v6 against decent order premades, with tankbeardz (nuclear did too) and won. It is hard to pull off in competitive fights, but could be done. Also, having a challenge is fun, and some people enjoy a harder class. Synergised perfectly with sorcerer wop rotations.

Range will be fixed someday im sure, but the 5sec cd needs to stay imo as frf tickles at best, and against competent teams boc rotations are essential in keeping up the pain. I know Aza wanted to move away from reliance on single ability, but I honestly deem it the easiest, and least time consuming, option right now that would appease st magi.

Don't think the class needs an inc hd as you can get that from another dps. Maybe an outgoing hd from ifoc that stacks, but necessitates channeling the ability for its entire duration (linking in with idea of stationary caster, Changing being the weakening tree), but it still works without. Was gonna write a proposal few months ago but meh.

[Whitesands]

I think from what has been posted, a compelling rationale for returning Bolt of Change's cool down to 5 seconds has been made. Could there be a reply from the Development Team?

1) is career balancing still going on?

2) based on what has been presented, is there any reason not to return the 5 second cool down to BoC?

3) if the 5 second cool down is to remain, can Bolt of Change be returned to its prior Havoc Mastery placement (the original change of the ability on the mastery line was tied to the lowering of the cool down)?

Thanks

[Azarael]

Did you notice that the balance forums were removed?

[Arteker616]

I go back and forth on this argument when it comes to 5s vs 10s cast times on BoC / Snipe. I am not a fan of the super range, and with 5s I did agree that it was a problem.

But I am not in the agreement that 5s BoC is going to be enough to really change the ST spec into something more viable.

Magus has it a little better thanks to magical damage, and not having a wasted stat like WS, and having the crit tactic in the ST tree but even then it is much harder to justify a group spot on destro side then order side when you are trying to compete with things like marauders or SH's. The lack of a heal debuff is pretty major when you consider group comps, and time to target.

I have been feeling this a lot on both my engi and my magus. When you get into the real tougher fights, against good players who know what they are doing, it becomes vital to have multiple heal debuffs. Outgoing and incoming, and often times due to cleansing you want a career that can reapply quickly, or just double coverage to ensure up time. One of the reason people are liking SH's right now in premades. I don't like, and I am not advocating for more heal debuffs to be added, I am just saying that there is a very clear line between the haves and have nots.

I can see where the 5s cooldown will help in small scale roaming, in pug scenarios, but in the harder fights isn't it more of a band-aid than a real fix? Is this really going to make more pre-mades run ST maguses? If not, is this the change that really needs to happen?

no its harder due to lacking auto attack, and in general raising disrupt is easy as hell compared to dodge . lacking a good morale to increase burst

[Whitesands]

Did you notice that the balance forums were removed?

Thank you for the reply. I appreciate all you and the team have done. To your question: I did notice, but I didn't assume that meant no class changes can or will occur moving forward. Am I incorrect?

The request and argument I have been making is that what was, be returned. This is after allowing time for the changes to be tested and create a general consensus. That consensus is that the new single target magus is not viable, while previously it was. This does not require any innovation, simply redress. Is this doable?

[Azarael]

It means that the question of balance will not be addressed further for the foreseeable future, in any direction. This may change at Sovereign level, and then again, it might not. That not only means no changes, it means no reversions, because the state stabilisation thread demonstrated to me that balancing efforts are pointless.

[Karast]

no its harder due to lacking auto attack, and in general raising disrupt is easy as hell compared to dodge . lacking a good morale to increase burst

Autoattack does incredibly low damage unless it is a negative toughness SH / WE. You can try it out on an engi if you like. But hands down magus ST rotation with BoC is much better and more consistent dps. If you added into the crit tactic / crit damage tactics it makes a huge difference. Remember auto attack only triggers when not casting / channeling / moving and on most targets it is taking 50% mitigation after debuff. Armor is a huge issue for engi, everyone one runs with armor pots, but resist buffs depend on the group comp and if knights are in range. We would gladly trade auto-attack, ws, and M2 to just have magical damage. The average target rocks a base 75-60% mitigation destro side in your average 2/2/2 premade. Doks / marauders are pretty much tanks and will gut any dps you do through mitigation in ST. There is not an engi out there who knows what they are talking about that wouldn't trade in a heart beat. We might have a few niffty tactics, and a nice M3, but you win it hands down on stat stacking, and damage types. It is a night and day difference, and if you can't take my word for it, try it yourself and see. A few scenarios against solid premade groups and you'll have had enough.

Also there is no big difference between dodge / disrupt. Wisdom based disrupt is countered directly by int. We are in the same crappy boat when it comes to gear based avoidance / renown avoidance / htl. It sucks all around.

As far as morale goes M2 is not as good as it used to be, and any decent group / players watch for it, and even with it a 3k snipe only hits for 1k when 75% is mitigated into the ground, it only matters in pug warbands and keep defenses for sneaky snipers, in a group situation it is unreliable and easily countered. Many now run focused mind just as maguses do. If you are talking about M3. Magus does have some good options, but unless if you are in a keep siege or heavily running + morale, 3 is a long way to wait in a scenario group, often too long to make worthwhile.

The grass is always greener thing is a poisonous view point for us. We both have advantages, the others don't, but we also share many of the same problems with the same wonky bad mechanic, and over reliance on key abilities.