[SLAYER] What would make Giantslayer Tree useful again?

[Azarael]

A:"How to make slayers play giant spec?"
B:"Nerf skaven spec".

hahaha,

If Skavenslayer is overpowered, then that's valid. Personally, I think it overshadows the other two specs because of the ridiculousness of having an effect like Shatter Limbs hosted on a MDPS for so little cost, and because there is nothing preventing Inevitable Doom from being effective single-target damage. In fact, both of those abilities are bad design because they're still effective single target tools.

Someone mentioned Deathblow and Weaklin' Killa cooldown. That's something for the balance forum.

[TenTonHammer]

Ok guys i had a crazy idea while i was taking a walk today and i want to see yalls opinion on it: Re ordering slayers 2 problematic skill trees


Off the bat the wounds debuff gets moved down to 5 pts, I don’t feel this is unreasonable; it needs to be spec’d for, its an exhaust, it requires a 2H, and mara’s which is the best in the game is also 5 pts

Now spellbreaker as people pointed out its too “weak” to justify its location as a 13 point tree in both utility and damage, while it does have its use’s countering morale absorbs and what not, I still agree that its not “13 point material”, hence I suggest moving it down

Now shatter limbs should be moved to 13 points in giant slayer; no 2H requirements necessary since if you’re going to invest 13 points into the tree its going to limit your ability to get a lot of the other “good stuff”, the reason 2 do this is two fold; as pointed out earlier the 2H tree lacks in utility and reasons to pick giant over skaven slayer, putting SL in the tree would massively increase the utility of the tree and would bring skaven slayer back in line because it it right now, 2 of the strongest slayer abilities are in one tree and causes it to over shadow the other 2 trees
Now slayers will need to choose between the strong utility of SL and the damage of ID so now there will be equal viability between all 3 trees.

To replace SL in skaven slayer is CiT, now this ability can continue to be as is a steady ticking dot or it can be changed to work as the choppers version which is a weak starting dot with backload burst, either way its damage needs to be increased to justify picking it at its new point cost.

I also considered perhaps that CiT could be made into a “finisher” being able to be used after only a certain health percentage to deal big dmg but deathblow already kinda in a way serves as that


What do yall think.

[blaqwar]

At first glance it seems like a good idea but I see an issue with Shatter Limbs, the one ability that gets Slayers warband spots, the ability that requires them to be in the thick of it - in the backlines - in RvR combat, being at the top of the tree that makes Slayers the least survivable.

Slayers will have the option of:
a) Running SL and Power Through, going into the backlines and hoping they can drop SL and do some damage and drop a second SL before exploding or
b) Running SL just for the sake of the debuff and not going with the 2h Giantslayer playstyle and being durable enough to actually make debuffing back lines with SL work.
c) Running the standard ID AoE build without SL hoping they get a WB spot.

Either way it feels like the Slayer viability would suffer.

I only have experience running ID/SL in a WB setting (on live) and don't know if/how durable Slayers with Power Through are in RvR. But it seems to me that if b) occurs then SL is clearly too strong (a career is viable as being only a SL bot with little else to offer).

My suggestion would be keeping the spec tree's you've laid out but swapping ID and Shatter Limb. Remove the AoE component on ID (and the dualwield requirement) and buff the damage SL does to approx the combined aoe damage value of ID.
(Stealing the neatly edited picture, kudos)



The reasoning would be:
- Skavenslayer becomes more difficult to spec for but Slayers speccing for it can retain their role of AoE support dps. SL would become not just a debuff with minimal damage but a strong AoE damage spike. Adjusting the cooldown appropriately would be justified (and perhaps tone down the order dominance on CD increasers).
- ID is a strong single target damage tool, it's also very unique and I'd hate to see Slayers lose that. If you combine constant ID (changed to single target) with the strong spike tools Giantslayer already has you turn that into the dominant single-target spec tree.

You solve both SL being too easy to obtain while mainting the role of Slayers in a WB and Giantslayer being overshadowed by the other two specs. Skavenslayer would become strong AoE damage while Trollslayer maintains its position as a utility/durability tree. Also you kinda give Slayers the choice between a Power Through 2h Giantslayer spec and a Dualwield "Giantslayer for ID, rest in Trollslayer, spam Spine Crusher" spec.

The problems I can see are
1. SL becoming too strong (although it feels like damage is already in abundance in WBvsWB) or too weak - perhaps the damage on SL couldn't be buffed enough due to burst constraints for the spec to be doing enough AoE damage without ID and would run into the same issue as TenTon's suggestion.
2. Giantslayer becoming overpowered with the constant damage of ID combined with the spike of Deathblow.
3. You're not exactly restricting Slayers to 2h when speccing to Giantslayer. I'm not sure that's an issue but it feels silly if the main spec would be Dualwield Giantslayer spec that uses no GS abilities except ID.

[TenTonHammer]

2. Giantslayer becoming overpowered with the constant damage of ID combined with the spike of Deathblow.
3. You're not exactly restricting Slayers to 2h when speccing to Giantslayer. I'm not sure that's an issue but it feels silly if the main spec would be Dualwield Giantslayer spec that uses no GS abilities except ID.

The thing is that I specifically chose not to swap over ID to 13 on GS tree for exactly the concern you listed, ID does extremely strong ST and AoE dmg especially with its ability to proc enchantments, prayers etc that damage potential ontop of 2H trees burst just feels like it would be too strong

Now you say that SL is why people take slayer in WB and that running powered through in an oRvR situation would make the class melt too fast, this is true with all the RDPS AoE, cannons, magus hitting you from across the map etc you will melt fast.

I that situation since you’re not constantly running around trying to apply wounds debuffs on targets and breaking shields but rather get to the backlines to apply SL on healer targets would it not be better to just not run PT in oRvR WB v WB situations for increased survivability? I play 2H choppa is I don’t feel that wot rules? Is “mandatory” to run always, when im in a small party or roaming but never in WB situations.

There is a 3rd option though: a full change of all the trees:



Rune of Absoprtion if you choose to get it can “offset” the inherent squishiness from being forced to run Power Through,
so instead of utility like my previous suggestion with SL, you get survivability instead.


SL is a viable spec option in the AoE tree for WB v W conflicts with no risk of danger from powered through

ID is moved to the giant slayer, and still a 13 point ability, so you can get some but not all of slayers best toys opening up the option for more spec combos

While it is nice for trees to have “themes” ie this is ST, this is 2H, this is AoE, I feel practicality and balance is more important than enforcing the theme

There is one… other solution, I don’t like it though because it does absolutely nothing to address skaven and so I wouldn’t be comfortable suggesting it on the balance forums

Devestate to 5, spellbreaker to 9 and CiT moved to 13 and forgotten about.

Make the abilities easier to access so that Giant slayers so they can get Devestate, SB, rampage, DW and RoA

[Kali14]

This tree is not stupid. If you will also replace Power Throught tactic from Troll spec with Violet Impacts tactic from giant I will could spam Spellbreaker and have 25% cheance to regain 225 heals from Honor Restored tactic. And in this tree with Rune of Absorption Slayer will be much better for solo. But Ithink my idea of Spellbreaker which ignore 50% of the victim armour is also good and more people decide play giant spec if you also remove penalty from breaking point tactic.I really dislike play with dual wield and spam ID, but this is just good (and bit noob with shatter limbs and rampage). If you want nerf this ability reduce it's time dealing damages from 4-8 seconds for example to 5 seconds because this dealing only 320 damages with 700 strenght.

[TenTonHammer]

Spellbreaker is a situational ability designed to remove absorbs, if you want to spam an exhaustive strike to recover a paltry amount of health then precarious assault is better for that

RoA is not for solo, its a strong surviveablity tool thats useful for taking some pressure off your healers to keep you up, and secondly Armor ignore is a horrible idea that will mean its stronger than even deathblow, armor debuffs and armor ignore realted abilities should never be on slayers/choppas

Theses classes are still the hardest hitting mdps in the game

[Luth]

Shatter limbs should be an exhaustive blow and have a higher cooldown; it makes no sense that almost all other tools of the class require to dump the rage (knockdown, crit chance reduce, wounds debuff, aoe-snare, rampage), but this powerful one does not.
A second point: people argue as if "power through" is mandatory to play the class; again: maintaining your rage-meter is the class mechanic.
If it was up to me, the tactic would be removed. It removes the backdraw of exhaustive blows (lower damage output for some seconds), while the backdraws of slotting it can be often compensated by tanks/healers. This would also indirectly raise the value of "violent impacts".

[Kali14]

Spellbreaker is a situational ability designed to remove absorbs, if you want to spam an exhaustive strike to recover a paltry amount of health then precarious assault is better for that

RoA is not for solo, its a strong surviveablity tool thats useful for taking some pressure off your healers to keep you up, and secondly Armor ignore is a horrible idea that will mean its stronger than even deathblow, armor debuffs and armor ignore realted abilities should never be on slayers/choppas

1.Can't spam Precarious assault because this make me 5% easlier to being critically hit ( nobody don't use this ability)
-that's why also nobody don't use honour Restored tactic.

2.Spellbreaker will ignore 50% of the victim armour in this tree which is now, only need replace violent impact with power through to make from it spam attack and all giant tree better. Armour debuff is the most important thing what slayer need, even tanks have them. Slayer don't have nothing to armour debuff except own weapon skill.

3. Always when I talking "SOLO" I mean solo Q for scenarios and warbands where we play as TEAM but we are not sure if gonna have healers. Most players play that.

[Tesq]

shatter limbs need a nerf or generally all CD increase/decreaser stuff in game need a review if you think how much is the impact when these skills get used and how much they improve the power creep of some classes while rend useless some other or some skill in particular with almost really few counter play if burried over other dots.

double slayer is a thing because when they arrive on the healers, the healers are ****, in the mean while they can reach healers because shatter limbs will stop any skill spam by opposite front line.

this couple with aoe pressure over all healer spot which hit all the party or to be precise

9 ppl get id pressure x 2 slayer + 9ppl get shatter limbs x2 slayer + 3 get with aoe focussed down x2 slayer + add undefitable hits due rampgae+ add 1 heal debuff x slayer.

g heal/group is in CD --> GG :/

old cheese story dont let the enemy play.

before any slayer re arrange all these 4 skill from SM/Slayer/choppa/squig should be review, this will benefith in the long range also the SM /choppa fix.

@ to ppl pro spellbreaker buff: even the 2h choppa heal debuff is situational, thse skill are designed to be situational, choppa fasta are burst classes their strengh are not in the skill but in fast target swap, they do not need top have the same tools of mara/wl.

The spellbreaker is dam op used with a brain, since it can remove absorb of 7k or 3k which are m3 absorb and that in the case of 3k abosrb this is the base m3 of every healer.

3 dam k of absorb you can remove and you want even buffed it? it was alredy boost here make the damage after the remove of the absorb you even want it buff now?

[Kali14]

New tree is very good but if people have play also skaven spec , M4 Doom Seeker should be upgraded, like from 1800-till 2400 damages or anything because nobody don't go in this spec only for shatter limbs. Precarious Assault on 100% must have remove penalty (+5% to being crit), would be cool if this same wil be done with breaking point tactic. Most classes have some tactic or skill which upgrade their cheance to critically hit but they don't have penalties.