[Implementation Feedback] A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

[Teefz]

This is not an argument. If we're going to discuss on this level, I can retort by saying that your two mains are both classes with kite potential, and that you could easily be talking from either a selfish or a 1on1 perspective. Of course a change like this is going to hurt you, personally.

That 20% snare is still cleansable, still has 65ft range, is less than the standard snare of 40% and equal to the Covenant snare of 20% and still means you're faster than normal if either runspeed effect is active (by 5% or 10% depending on the effect). If there would still be issues with a 20% snare, modify the cooldown.

If we are going to have a discussion about balance and gameplay changes, one would hope that suggestions like making Snap Shot/Throwing Dagger not require any positional requirements would be dismissed instantly, due to the fact that WH/WE's are stealthers and rely heavily on stealth. That's their game and has been since 2008. If they f#%k up their stealth/opener well then this is where you start reevaluating the situation. This snare suggestion seems to me more based on 1v1 rather than group play, as snares are not an issue in groups, especially not against the current AoE snares in the game. Therefore I am praying for common sense.

This assumes that WH/WE are currently solid components of current melee trains. Melee trains not running WH/WE don't change as a result of this.

I've mentioned this a number of times on the forum, but it isn't in the rules - we won't balance through itemization. For the purpose of a balance discussion, proc weapons do not exist. I will be updating the rules.

Fair point.

4) is ruled out, especially at a pathetic 5% per snare, because blowing GCDs in melee on something like that is something numerous WH/WE in the thread have stated is infeasible.

But if they are out of range with nothing better to do why wouldn't they try and keep it up? - I agree the 5% per snare is pathetic. I misread your own post on Page 1, my bad.

Spoiler:

Clarificantion please, if 4 would the snare stack 3x as well or would the skill be gutted? If it stacks what is the suggestion 10% per stack or what? Just trying to figure out the direction.

I would have suggested 3x stack, 10 or 15%.

[Theseus]

This is not an argument. If we're going to discuss on this level, I can retort by saying that your two mains are both classes with kite potential, and that you could easily be talking from either a selfish or a 1on1 perspective. Of course a change like this is going to hurt you, personally.

That 20% snare is still cleansable, still has 65ft range, is less than the standard snare of 40% and equal to the Covenant snare of 20% and still means you're faster than normal if either runspeed effect is active (by 5% or 10% depending on the effect). If there would still be issues with a 20% snare, modify the cooldown.

If we are going to have a discussion about balance and gameplay changes, one would hope that suggestions like making Snap Shot/Throwing Dagger not require any positional requirements would be dismissed instantly, due to the fact that WH/WE's are stealthers and rely heavily on stealth. That's their game and has been since 2008. If they f#%k up their stealth/opener well then this is where you start reevaluating the situation. This snare suggestion seems to me more based on 1v1 rather than group play, as snares are not an issue in groups, especially not against the current AoE snares in the game. Therefore I am praying for common sense.

This assumes that WH/WE are currently solid components of current melee trains. Melee trains not running WH/WE don't change as a result of this.

I've mentioned this a number of times on the forum, but it isn't in the rules - we won't balance through itemization. For the purpose of a balance discussion, proc weapons do not exist. I will be updating the rules.

Fair point.

4) is ruled out, especially at a pathetic 5% per snare, because blowing GCDs in melee on something like that is something numerous WH/WE in the thread have stated is infeasible.

But if they are out of range with nothing better to do why wouldn't they try and keep it up? - I agree the 5% per snare is pathetic. I misread your own post on Page 1, my bad.

Spoiler:

Clarificantion please, if 4 would the snare stack 3x as well or would the skill be gutted? If it stacks what is the suggestion 10% per stack or what? Just trying to figure out the direction.

I would have suggested 3x stack, 10 or 15%.

Hm considering the original post it would only be from the side and behind.... so saying that it wouldnt have any positional requirements seems a bit exagerated.

[Koha]

Hm considering the original post it would only be from the side and behind.... so saying that it wouldnt have any positional requirements seems a bit exagerated.

But it is... what's left ? from the front ? then it could even be used to kite enemies...[/quote]

[Tesq]

ppl are not keep account of the damages escalation these classes will have on cloth healers and rdp.

they should not even have 3 sec KD, thx 1.4.7 patch for that; give em melee snare would fix their only weakness in CC; these classes have access to:

inc heal debuff
out healdebuff
one + 100% avoidance x type if specced (1 for WE; 2 for WH)
ranged snare
tactic that make their meccanic gain faster
one self punt that can be used to reach the target
Stealth that allow the to run and not walk-->furthermore stealth is harder to detect than live

1 alternative skill/tactic used as gap closer (only we---> swit pursuit)

Only option 1 should be taken in account, aka fix what's it's not working as it should be, as you done for be able to turn while Knock downed.

Unless there has been a change I am unaware of, WH/WE self-punt requires a Target in range(5ft), and is parry/blockable. Using our self-punt to reach a target is really hard... Yes, skill, lrn2play and whatnot. But outside of a perfect situation, self-punting past the front lines rarely works for me... Also, if you haven't seen it. Punting someone mid-jump/self-punt puts some ridiculous distance on it... I do it on my knight to WE/SH all the time..

Of the self punt only the stun part can be blocked, the jump can not, and of course you use a enemy tank, if you are lucky you stag it and self punt in the direction where the enemy dd or healer is running into ( this also was the live implementation also.

I have no idea what your point on stealth means. I don't really see how much of that is viable to the discussion at hand, but since one of your points is a ranged snare, it would be nice if that ranged snare wasn't only usable on those not "game smart" enough to strafe... The class' are well balanced in my experience, our extreme squishyness and stealth working the best outside of guard range, not to mention Kiteability and almost entire lack of AoE...

The point is we/wh suffer less the snare and any other cc or kite due the fact that they are hidden, which of course other melee do not, what they loose from have no melee snare in engage later they gain it pre engagement due to the hide

TLDR; WH/WE are supposed to have high damage on cloth characters. It's what they are generally designed to do...

Good wh/we will kill in solo unguarded healers due to damages increase new gear will give also thx to that pesky 3 sec kd, add a melee snare would be overkilling.

@to all the rest it remain option number 1 make the snare happen even from sides instead only rear.

[sotora]

Good wh/we will kill in solo unguarded healers due to damages increase new gear will give also thx to that pesky 3 sec kd, add a melee snare would be overkilling.

Provided you are narrow super glass cannon crit build, top gear, has specific renown&mastery build, all long CD (including pots) available and dont make a single mistake. + have enough time to do that (most often you don't). And even then good WP are out of question. Good AM very hard and very time consuming.

Besides that - we're talking about 6v6 or more via the rules. Not 1v1. Like devs said many times also in this topic.

[Tesq]

i am not talkign about 1 vs 1, idk how much the damages will increase to here to sov but there is the chance that like in live happened 3 sec of kd are enought to kill any cloth healer and i'm saying cloth so not wp/dok, cloth healer are the other one.

An AM etc is not a hard target if you have enough dps to bring it down in 3 sec where he cannot react a at all and it's cought totaly out of guard; add a rdps in assist 3 sec with a wh/we caming out of hide are more than enough if the healer is a bit behind and have no guard.
In live that was the norm you saw shammy pop like that all the time.

6vs6 argument it fallancy on hide anyway, the hide work better when the we/wh dont get see hide, with to low ppl the hide itself it's too easy to spot and too predictable by the tank movement so ye 6vs 6 it's a bad argument cuz just a rdps, it suppose to be more ppl in front line to make that hide tactic work.
Then it can work even in 6vs 6 but it would not be the same as in a 12 vs 12 or more enviroment.

[Danielle]

In a group v group scenario or more if playing against good opposition a WH/WE will get focused 90% of the time after they open from their first stealth. Because of this they will likely never be allowed to restealth before the engagement is decided. Even that first stealth can be kited out by aware opponents who play extra safe. If an opponent was killed in 3 seconds every time a WH/WE executed properly with their first stealh in 6v6 a group situation everyone would be running them, this is simply not the case. Aside from the Excommunicate morale pump cheese and a 4dps proc group (which both are a stretch on the theme of 'viable' group composition) I haven't seen a single viable comp having success with WE/WH.

This is why I dislike the argument that they should be 100% dependent on stealth, because that requirement is unrealistic. The way things are any other mdps than these two can charge, Choppa and Slayer can charge+kd, WL can pounce, both Mara and WL have M1 to catch ranged or escaping targets. With a dysfunctional snare a WH/WE are left standing there not able to contribute anything to the group in terms of catching a target once their first stealth is done and they are being hit. That's why I believe a snare is important. I prefer suggestions 1&2 better, because they allow a skill to be used that's unique to the class, rather than having a copy of a 40% melee snare from a different class. I don't think having a functional ranged slow would suddenly make the class ridiculous and a snare from sides/back is keeping with the theme of positional attacks.

[Tesq]

then fix the disfuntional snare, do not give 1 more snare to them.

they have a:
-ranged
.spammable
-snare

make it work then do not give them 1 additional snare, also the point it's the hide it' a unique tool they have, it's a force multiplier and you do not know how much opening from the hide can turn with gear and more crit. 3 sec may be enough(they were on live to bring down cloth healers) and you could have to re balance it again.

[Stalker]

Warhammer die a second time.
Every day more and more stupid ideas.
From people who do not know how to play well.

Banned from the balance forum for this post - Azarael

[Annaise16]

Personally, I don't think that WH/WE need better snare. They both have abilities that can combat kiters in 1v1 and its hard to see why they need a better snare for group play.

But if you want to give them a better snare, why not make SS/TD an ability that can be used at 0-65ft instead of the current 5-65ft range. That way, if they want to snare an opponent, they can do so directly out of stealth or following a knockdown. The positional requirement shouldn't be a problem in those situations.


PS. A reduction in cast-time of SS/TD would complement this change.

Please explain in more detail - what abilities do WH/WE have to solve the problem that the OP mentions, and how should they be used? You are simply contradicting at the moment.

Stealth is used to close the gap and, once the gap has been closed, you don't let the kiters get out of range. Prevention is better than a cure.

To prevent the opponent from getting out of range:

WH:
Attack from stealth
KD
Snare immunity, 100% disrupt, or Resolute Defense, depending on which class you are attacking and your spec
At this point, it should only be possible for SH/shaman to get out of range
Use Burn Away Lies, if specced, it finishes off most SHs
If the target gets beyond 5 ft use Absolution or Exit Wound, if specced.

WE is similar but they should use Resolute Defense out of stealth against most kiters because of the ranged knockdowns on Order. They also have the 30ft ranged knockdown.

Both classes have access to Flee and AP pots. This combination works.

If a target still gets out of range, you use cover in the environment or Flee to break line-of-sight until you can re-stealth.


I had over 120 days played on WH/WE on live and there were very few times when a kiter got away from me. And those occasions tended to be because I made a mistake and they didn't.