Return of Reckoning

@Darosh

- I totally understand your points and I really wish there was more competitive play to be honest. The current destro 6 mans would want no part in a melee DoK most of the time which is kinda sad, I really enjoy super random party comps and seeing how they mesh together. I think in reality not playing with the best possible 6 man makes you learn different ways to play a class. And it totally helps a lot to play your class out of your element.

Until melee power gets boosted and there are some better weapons, I just can't rationalize being blown up 60-70% of the time I solo Q, vs having a better spec when I am in a top tier 6 man as I'll CC spam'd by knight's, punted, pounced, kd'd, armor debuffed dead, sometimes all of that with a WH on me.

6 Man scene used to be a lot of fun until all of the cheese tactics crept through from being very seldom, to more and more frequent. But I mean it is already starting to show as order 6 mans usually destroy anything after 8pm eastern and no one wants to Q anything but the pug SC.

- I really do think that when they un nerf the convenants 1 second ICD for DoK - a lot more damage will return to the class. B/c without AA's are basically useless.

Fair points alltogether, I agree.

As to the proc nerf: yes, that change majorly **** over mdps DoKs, however a lack of ICDs can break the game as has been demonstrated during the proc meta days. A compromise could be to disable the ICD, or have it sit at 0.5s instead, for the DoK, and only for its own convenant... but meh, dunno how feasible that'd be either, all things consider.

I wouldn't get my hopes up for a reversal of the nerf.

Darosh wrote:Fair points alltogether, I agree.

As to the proc nerf: yes, that change majorly **** over mdps DoKs, however a lack of ICDs can break the game as has been demonstrated during the proc meta days. A compromise could be to disable the ICD, or have it sit at 0.5s instead, for the DoK, and only for its own convenant... but meh, dunno how feasible that'd be either, all things consider.

I wouldn't get my hopes up for a reversal of the nerf.

A change to .5 sec would be a massive improvement. Atleast it would be only a minor nerf compared to such a huge one right now.... I'm all for ICDs but since rremoval of the .abx stuff... all the ICD did was nerf a class that wasnt broken or OP to begin with...

Side note... why does it seem to always land on destru - these "fixes"... Dok icd... chosen crip strikes etc... you never hear some major order thing that gets nerfed and ruins a class.... it's just depressing how it feels like besides morale dumps (which morale nerf hurt destru most) we really got nothing over order counterparts....

Hmm wl pounce Cool down? Kotbs crit aura nerf? Fester bomb Limit dmg.? Its not like there is nothing

th3gatekeeper wrote:

Darosh wrote:Fair points alltogether, I agree.

As to the proc nerf: yes, that change majorly **** over mdps DoKs, however a lack of ICDs can break the game as has been demonstrated during the proc meta days. A compromise could be to disable the ICD, or have it sit at 0.5s instead, for the DoK, and only for its own convenant... but meh, dunno how feasible that'd be either, all things consider.

I wouldn't get my hopes up for a reversal of the nerf.

A change to .5 sec would be a massive improvement. Atleast it would be only a minor nerf compared to such a huge one right now.... I'm all for ICDs but since rremoval of the .abx stuff... all the ICD did was nerf a class that wasnt broken or OP to begin with...

Side note... why does it seem to always land on destru - these "fixes"... Dok icd... chosen crip strikes etc... you never hear some major order thing that gets nerfed and ruins a class.... it's just depressing how it feels like besides morale dumps (which morale nerf hurt destru most) we really got nothing over order counterparts....

Well, the issue with the DoK procs is that you can run two DoKs and a Sorc - without the ICDs you'd potentially be looking at ~500 additional damage per timestamp (+/- depending on your composition) just from procs, back-to-back snare procs and not be underestimated lifetaps in bomb situations - on every single member of your group. (=> proc-meta)
The Chosen CS was an issue because it had the potential to stack with challenge and alike, iirc.

The moment premades pick stuff like that up, you've pointed it out yourself, they just abuse it to the best of their capabilities.
There still is some very nasty stuff around, that I am surprised no one picked up or remembered yet.

To work out proper changes the devs probably need client control/more resources - reworking of the entire stacking-hierachy/stats, substitutes for skills/tactics/etc and the introduction of new mechanics to alleviate the impact of those you cannot take care of otherwise is a pretty difficault task if you have to work with the <remains> of a game, in your free time and, at times, without the expertise required to tackle specific problems.
I highly doubt they would roll out blanket changes like that if they could avoid it; I am pretty sure they have thought about exceptions and alternative solutions.

As to the order thing, well, take a look on the toolkits of most order classes - its the equivalent of a house of cards. While order classes are generally more potent, their entire schtick is poorly crafted otherwise (the only exception being IB) and does not have as much integrity to it as destro's does. Order pretty much comes down to raw bruteforce - destro still has atleast some kind of leeway in their mechanics, even if it is often glanced at and brushed aside right after because it doesn't match the meta that is defined by the few premades running around.
In other words, change a thing on destro and at worst it has a negative impact and needs revision, change a thing on order and it bears the risk of everything coming crashing down.
Mythics tendencies to rush out certain classes and change not only them, but others aswell based on population imbalance or to ducttape their otherwise wonky designs didn't necessarily help maintain, or establish to begin with, complexity/integrity.
At least this is my take on it ~ just look at the KotBS, its probably the most shallow class to ever exist.

Abbd.: Additonally there is player perception that will **** over even the most well meant and more often than not necessary changes, and an environment that badly, if at all, allows for the reflection of impact/necessity.
Abbd.: On a completely unrelated note: It be interesting to know whether CS procs of BL (Backlash), considering that is, in theory, considered ST and, iirc, can crit. << Strike that, just did some research on the forums, it does not (anymore).

Double dok + sorc was crazy together with ere we go with tactic 3 spells 11 procs with 200 dmg + possibel... Was about 2-3 k dmg Just from The procs

Yeah I get the "proc meta" stuff that 6 mans did lol. I'm not saying that wasn't a problem because obviously it was. But what I don't understand is this:

Why nerf the main source of a DoK's damage without just making the ICD for everyone BUT the DoK. I'll explain why it is their main damage.

DoK - dual weild. less base damage. faster AA's. Tactic for 50% increased AA. Shoulders for AA. Oathstones for AA. All of these proc'd CoV/CoC. Armor meta - you put on bloodthirst or potent cov, damage is actually more effective vs all targets. Abilities do anywhere from 30-60% less damage than WP, but we made up for that with procs. Now that that is out there.

- Either they did not realize it was that key to their damage, or they just wanted an already super gimped class in comparison to live because apparently everyone hated DD DoK's on live lol. I don't know which it was but removing the ICD for a DoK breaks nothing if they can leave it on the rest of the party. That was my only point and I haven't been answered yet, hopefully soon though.

How on earth are you coming to the conclusion that a DPS WP is outputting up to 60% more damage than a DPS DOK?

peterthepan3 wrote:How on earth are you coming to the conclusion that a DPS WP is outputting up to 60% more damage than a DPS DOK?

up to 60% more on abilities lol sorry I shoulda clarified. But that is how it should be since you have a MASSSSSSIVE hammer. I have little sword sticks compared to that thing which are faster and should be a bunch of smaller numbers that have procs.

I'm not saying at all that a DPS WP does more than a DoK. DoK has 3 AOE moves, WP has arguably 2, but in reality one used for mechanic generation. I am saying that it's ability damage is up to 60% more than a DoK's including it's AA damage, which the DoK makes up for in faster AA's and procs - or it used to be lol.

Any DoK can throw devour essence on a tank standing in the middle of 4+ people and get a buncha fluff procs to go off. It's key was that it could provide some burst healing, or burst damage in unison with AA's and your execution.

But, that is sorta what I meant. Sorry I wasn't more clear in my reasoning explanation.

Daknallbomb wrote:Hmm wl pounce Cool down? Kotbs crit aura nerf? Fester bomb Limit dmg.? Its not like there is nothing

Right, but none of those completely "gutted" the class.

So look at WL pounce, yes a small CD... prevented cheese spamming but they were given BACK the added run speed buff for 3 seconds to compensate for it. So a give and a take.

KOTBS was massively OP providing 20% crit and now in T4 also being able to get Vigilance. They made EA require a 2H, which actually opened UP build variety with 2H and SNB....

What did Order get?

DOK IDC on proc - eviscerated the damage
Crip Strikes no longer procs off AoE - completely gutted 2H Chosen - the OPPOSITE of the EA nerf.

NO "give and take"... Just boom. You Done. So now there is NO reason to have a 2H Chosen, every Chosen should roll SnB. Crip Strikes (a HUGE cornerstone tactic for Chosen) is nerfed...

DOKs - ICD and no "give back" in the form of other changes to compensate... Just bam... WAY less damage... On a class that wasnt necessarily over perfoming to begind with... I didn see warbands requesting Melee DOKs or 2H Chosen... I get that Crip Strieks was proccing off some backlash thing - so rather than remove it, just make THAT THING not able to crit and it fixes the problem..

If we were all very objective... its pretty clear to see most of the changes have just been massive kicks in the balls to Destru which is why we are where we are today...