[Implemented] Crimson Death (duration)

[zumos2]

Simply answer to the question is probably yes. But it is a very isolated question that has a lot to it. I will focus on more coordinated teamplay, as if I would run any tank as a pug, I would pick BG and annoy the heal out of the enemy healers

Two-handed tanks or rather dps tanks are mostly viable in smaller fights such as 6v6 or scenarios. In general we see nearly no two-handed tanks in the 6v6 meta atm. Knight can run it for the wounds debuff, but for that has to sacrifice Dirty Tricks (10% crit for the whole group). Also he has to be fully tank specced to be able to survive the guard damage and possible swaps to him. Apart from seeing very few two-handed tanks, the main problem of BG seems that the BO is just found to be better. Part of this problem is the strength of marauders atm. Marauders give you the best armor debuff in the game, as well as the best wounds debuff. They even have ways to reduce the AP regain. When you have a mara, all the strong debuffs that a BG provide are covered except for the outgoing heal debuff. While this heal debuff is extremely strong, it is nearly impossible for a BG in a melee train to run to the healers to apply it in a 6v6 scenario. Considering these debuffs of the BG useless, the Black Orc provides more damage for the group through Skull Thumper and the initiative debuff from Da Biggest, while being way more tanky in SnB than a two-handed BG. There isn't too much point for the BO to go two-hander in the 6v6 scenario, so I leave that out.

A little buff for the two-handed black guard isn't gonna change anything in the 6v6 scenario. But as the BG seems to be the lowest rated tank atm, there isn't much against it either.

[Telen]

Crimson death is fire and forget kotbs need to stay near for the full duration. Id prefer reducing the cd to 5s.

[Azarael]

A defensive tank staying near to a target to apply a passive ability which costs no AP and no GCD while being undefendable is not a problem. I don't find that argument valid.

At the present time, I lean strongly towards upping the duration to 10s as a QoL change, with it being acknowledged that BG will need other future changes.

[noisestorm]

Also you guys who always point towards Kotbs skills like DT and EA seem to blatantly ignore the fact that destro DPS themselves have easier access to bonus crit or extra damage compared to order ones. Be it 20% for marauder (the 10% debuff on the mara himself is ridiculious and not even worth being mentioned), 15% for WE (stackable yes, but nonetheless relatively high uptime), 50% WE morale or the 10% extra dmg from Sorc (which makes extra crit also a lot more valuable for overall damage).

Not to forget that Choppa also has a crit damage tactic he can actually use compared to Slayer.

PS: please dont come with Leading Shots as its sh*t..

not even one of your arguments makes sense.

first of all: you are saying "the 10% debuff on the mara himself is ridiculious and not even worth being mentioned".
perfect! so please tell me why are the same 10% chance to be crit are worth an argument if they do affect a class which is not a marauder e.g. a target which got hit by CD? 10% are 10%. period. If 10% is not worth being mentioned on marauder your argument is a failure.

To keep going: The 10% debuff of the marauder (which is not worth mentioning), stacks with DT and EA. So the attacking order Mdps has 30% more crit on the marauder when playing with one kotbs. The marauder himself got 20% crit from FoF which is 10% crit less in total. Besides that the marauder has the lowest base ini of any mdps (24% with BiS gear rn). So you can either add one Swordmaster for the initiative debuff which will bump him to 80+% or a Ancestor's Fury specced IB to get another 10%. I see how much value your argument regarding FoF already has.

15% for a FM slotted WE: i lol'd, especially after you called Leading Shots useless. For me it's a proof that you have a wrong idea of how good/bad tactics are. While LS is a great tactic and used by any half brained SW - when grouped - FM is a full gimp tactic and something i'd never slot in a T4 build.

50% WE morale: countered by 50% WH morale 3. besides that WE is not a meta character and in competitive group fights death before she even has m2. you do not have the bugged morale regen from live hence why counting a M3 is quite ... .

10% extra dmg from Sorc: if a group desides to play with a sorc, they will most likely run a 1/3/2 setup. taking a 2h BG for that setup is laughable and some hurrdurr argument. Might have an impact in large scale PvP but then again the 2h BG will die before he can count to 3. Nothing wrong with CD in that case.

Choppa crit damage: Fierce Might is absolutely viable just more situational than Stab you Gooder + if i would've to choose i'd take Ancestral Inheritance and Push for More any time over Stab you Gooder. Also Choppa is no meta character since marauder still provides an incoming heal debuff. Swapping a marauder and a black orc for a 2h BG and a Choppa would be quite stupid if you aim for a competitive group. Your group would a.) be more vulnerable, b.) loose a lot of utility c.) loose damage since the BO helps the choppa to stay in combat (defensive utility) and provides as much damage as a 2h bg.

In fact BG gets outshined and this "buff" is a quality of life change and it will have little to no impact. Unless you can provide some real arguments i also suggest you stop derailing :^)

@Mara: I am talking about the bonus/backdraw provided by it. 20% outgoing greatly outshines the 10% incoming malus, thats all to it. Sure 10% is 10%, but the tactic itself is ridiculously strong nonetheless. Surely you can talk about init debuff and high to be crit chance, but you shouldnt forget that mara also has somewhat high toughness values and still medium armor to counteract that on some basis. Also its not like destro has no Init debuffs available, so no need to mention SM.

You calling playing with a sorc a hurrdurr argument is the same as me calling LS bad - its ones own opinion. People can and will run with it. Also people will sometimes just not play with SWs either if they dont want to. Playing with a SW provides a lot of backdraws which i personally dont justify taking in, just because of a 15% crit buff for the party. I rather stick and go with a melee setup before playing with an SW, hence my post. Sure a 2h BG+Sorc setup is crap and i am aware of that - i wasnt really thinking in terms of bg+sorc there, but rather that a crit increase as a whole is just very strong for destro as a realm.

Also nice, but not needed that you again show that Mara just outshines Choppas and WEs by lightyears, as well as BO does for BG, but like i said before, we-know-that-bg-needs-other-buffs-as-well. Those buffs need to be viable for SnB as well as 2h though, so i see no reason why you complain here about on a topic regarding a 2h skill. If we later on have other buffs on the BG as well and still have an - in my opinion - overbuffed CrimsonDeath you will most likely see some adjustments on other places where ppl gonna cry again. Keep that in mind.

Also i absolutely disregard ANY of your opinions about WE, since you completely lost all credibility on that class in my eyes, when you called it unplayable and useless aftewr the witchbrew _fix_ and switched back to your marauder because of it. I played my WE back on live for a very long time and always had frenzied mayhem slotted. you calling it gimped provides absolutely nothing, it is a very strong tactic and especially as a WE where you dont need your finishers to procc your kisses you can often keep an high amount of stacks available.

And to add to your horrible comparison of Slayer to Choppa: You really would use a 660(or rather 330) Armor tactic over a 25% crit damage one? Sounds like a horrible misconception on what this class is supposed to do to me. I can agree that the attackspeed one is extremely strong, but we are to compare the crit damage ones. And the "Situational" 0-90% is somewhat bad compared to a static 25% that you can keep even if your HP are topped off. Neither do you as a slayer, nor do your healers want to see your HP anywhere below 50% let alone being able to constantly keep it at that value to make your tactic even work.

I still dont know why you guys are even complaing about a 5 second increase in Crimson Deaths cd, when the skill nonetheless will be buffed in the first place. But in the end Aza will decide anyways judging from the posts coming so far. All i am saying is a 5 sec increase would be justified, but whatever

[zumos2]

The BG does NOT need any buff in his damage. He needs a buff in utility and that will be provided by how i would change it. Also i repeat it AGAIN as well: That the class needs buffs on other points is also know, but thats not up to debate right now. There is no need to overbuff this speicific skill at all.

Black Guard needing a buff in utility? It has a strong armor debuff, wounds debuff, crit chance debuff, healing debuff, block/parry debuff, longest knockdown in game, longest knockback in game, strong AP drain, AoE slow, several minor stat buffs/debuffs. And if you go Crimson Death basically a 5% crit chance increase, although you could argue you can get more value out of the 10% if you burst in those 5 seconds time. I'm not against a little buff on Crimson Death, as it is by far the least played tank and in 6v6 scenarios for a reason. But you cannot say the BG lacks utility. The problem is more that a lot of the utility is nullified by mostly the Marauder.

I have to say though that I don't really get the thread, looking at balance from such an isolated point of view, but I guess it's also just a little buff anyway.

[Telen]

A defensive tank staying near to a target to apply a passive ability which costs no AP and no GCD while being undefendable is not a problem. I don't find that argument valid.

BG has the best tools to pressure a healer. Having him debuff a group for 10s and then pressure the healer. t4 is already melee train or gtfo. EA is the real issue here and giving more tools to melee wont help balance.

[zumos2]

That would be quite a buff for the damage of BG. I would be looking at other balance issues first before doing this.

[Tiggo]

A defensive tank staying near to a target to apply a passive ability which costs no AP and no GCD while being undefendable is not a problem. I don't find that argument valid.

BG has the best tools to pressure a healer. Having him debuff a group for 10s and then pressure the healer. t4 is already melee train or gtfo.

But that is because Mythic nerfed every cc to death or made it instabreakable.

[bloodi]

I still dont know why you guys are even complaing about a 5 second increase in Crimson Deaths cd, when the skill nonetheless will be buffed in the first place. But in the end Aza will decide anyways judging from the posts coming so far. All i am saying is a 5 sec increase would be justified, but whatever

Because there is no reasons to, your basic argument was that it would improve the BG damage too much, many argued that this is no way a compensation for all the things you lose.

It seems like since they got a buff, you need to take something back from them, in the case of your suggestion a cd increase would make it a worse skill in situations where it gets defended.

All we are saying is that a 100% uptime in a skill that requires 2h is fair, skills that require 2h should be strong when it comes to tank archetypes. Specially when you compare it to Cave in.

[Blorckever]

Crimson death duration to 10 second will be a nice counter against Knight whit +10% critik each time they block kngith give the most stronger buff on party (+15% healing + 10 crit during during 10sec !!!) so BG giving 10% chance to be crit during "10sec" to sound good because on destro i dont find 1 class to be able to counter this . Or if some dont want to up Crimson death duration then find a way to nerf Knight tactic like +10% crit but during 3 or 5sec but not 10 to balance this tactic.