Overarching balance changes

[grumcajs]

do you know tank main survivability do not come from magical resistance but rather defensive skills, avoidance and tons of toughness?

or that healers main boost for survivability comes from detaunt that never wears off cuz they do not hit any1. (50% dmg reduction is pretty huge) Sure, some tanky healer specs are still viable (I mean there should be just different willpower scaling to heal values to punish full def healers with low heal output - have u ever seens something so useless as willpower talis? )

try stacking high toughness on mdps and spec for avoidance and you would see solid increase in TTK but you will be unable to kill a ****. it was same with def sov for dps classes. usually they got nice increase in survivability but was hitting like dps tanks thus making it usually ok just for solo.

[Nameless]

about armor stacking i would like to see different hard caps for each armor type user
for example
for cloth weavers cap at 45 % mitigation
for meduim armor users at 55%
for heavy armor cap at 75%

currently when the gear is sstill not out of control stacking armor is okish but with high end gear when everyone could reach +70% mitigation it become abit ridicules

i like to see some sort of crit cap also cos runing with 60-70 crit rates looks like broken game design

[Valfaros]

So now to something besides guard that could also offer better balance between pug and premade.

A usefull assist implemented in the game. I know there are addons and makros but a lot of people don't use any addon and even if they do they often don't use the same which makes it impossible that actually everybody assists.

I would recommend an implementadion of something that puts a target obove the focus (something like a red crossed circle or anything) and adds a chat notice. Don't know either grp wise or wb wise. Put in in default on on and ad a checkmark if you want it or not. Add default hotkeys for it (target focus and chance focus target). If people still don't focus then you lose because of bad play but it definitly closes the gap between people with voice com and solo quers.

Also as I said before it would be useful to implement a way to chance class at the beginning of a sc if you qued solo. That way you can actually get a useful setup and and don't just lose because of zero heal or no tanks.

[Gachimuchi]

When we play scenarios with correct setup we're winning 15-20 matches in a row agaist pugs. Of course its not only connected with "guard". There are many strong elements to make your premade strong."Guard" is the strongest for me.

It's easymode and not fun. That's why lower tier scenarios more fun for most players. This is my personal opinion i'm up for every civilized discussion and i respect all disagree opinions.

So, zero evidence ? As Viskag said before guard is only countered by "addon" "voice communication" and pure "assist" .

First and foremost, congratulations on your premade vs pug victories. As we all know, going into a scenario with a group in voicechat and a good composition of classes doesn't contribute to your chances of winning AT ALL. So when you mention that you can win 15-20 matches in a row with a premade versus pugs I think that you deserve a hearty round of applause and your claim that 'guard is strong for you' needs to be looked at closely.

/sarcasm

Considering you guys didn't put up much of a fight at all when we rolled you multiple times in scenarios I don't think you're much of an authority to just say you think guard is too strong and not back it up with any supporting evidence or ways it could be changed. As it stands, guard can be countered by punts. If they are immune its because you or your pugs need to L2P. Not that that matters much because I don't recall your tanks ever punting ours, maybe try that next time and you might change your opinion :^)

[Stmichael1989]

Heavy armor focuses on stopping physical damage, so it caps at 75% physical resist just like it does now. However it doesn't protect much from magic, so wearing it hard caps you at 25% magic resist. Reverse those for light armor/robes. Medium meets in the middle, and caps at 50% for each.

Such fundamental game design decisions need to be decided before the game is developed.
This is pretty much the system from TESO. You can't just change that in a "completed" game without any major and high likely negative impact, e.g. WEs/WHs stacking resistances and become virtually immune against caster damage.

Furthermore this game is centered around massive RvR while scenarios/small scale PvP is an addition.
Changes like these would probably lead to some weird "caster-meta" in the open RvR, where it would be more effective to nuke each other from afar.

1) Large scale sweeping change is listed as the second point of the class balance process right after getting classes working as they did on live. Granted, it might not be exactly on this scale, but it's not as if class balance will be limited to tweaking a few numbers on certain abilities.

2) The implication of a WH/WE being highly resistant to casters is the purpose of such a change. In fact, they above all else should be designed to kill casters and have all the tools to do so. Things like torment ignoring armor are counter intuitive design, as that would suggest they're supposed to be attacking tanks.

3) Changes like what I suggested would necessarily alter the meta, but they don't have to be bad for large scale RvR. I'm not sure where you get the implication that the meta would shift to magic damage dealers being dominant considering they would have a harder time with both light and medium armor targets.

As it is, large scale fights are a mess. The only ones who can truly initiate are tanks and sturdy melee dps guarded by tanks. They have to run in through massive AoE damage and focus fire from both melee and ranged classes. Under the assumption that this would be one of many general and specific changes, creating specific targets allows the whole warband to engage at the same time rather than relying on tanks to wade in hip deep with little punishment for a bad engagement.

[kweedko]

Heavy armor focuses on stopping physical damage, so it caps at 75% physical resist just like it does now. However it doesn't protect much from magic, so wearing it hard caps you at 25% magic resist. Reverse those for light armor/robes. Medium meets in the middle, and caps at 50% for each.

Such fundamental game design decisions need to be decided before the game is developed.
This is pretty much the system from TESO. You can't just change that in a "completed" game without any major and high likely negative impact, e.g. WEs/WHs stacking resistances and become virtually immune against caster damage.

Furthermore this game is centered around massive RvR while scenarios/small scale PvP is an addition.
Changes like these would probably lead to some weird "caster-meta" in the open RvR, where it would be more effective to nuke each other from afar.

1) Large scale sweeping change is listed as the second point of the class balance process right after getting classes working as they did on live. Granted, it might not be exactly on this scale, but it's not as if class balance will be limited to tweaking a few numbers on certain abilities.

2) The implication of a WH/WE being highly resistant to casters is the purpose of such a change. In fact, they above all else should be designed to kill casters and have all the tools to do so. Things like torment ignoring armor are counter intuitive design, as that would suggest they're supposed to be attacking tanks.

3) Changes like what I suggested would necessarily alter the meta, but they don't have to be bad for large scale RvR. I'm not sure where you get the implication that the meta would shift to magic damage dealers being dominant considering they would have a harder time with both light and medium armor targets.

As it is, large scale fights are a mess. The only ones who can truly initiate are tanks and sturdy melee dps guarded by tanks. They have to run in through massive AoE damage and focus fire from both melee and ranged classes. Under the assumption that this would be one of many general and specific changes, creating specific targets allows the whole warband to engage at the same time rather than relying on tanks to wade in hip deep with little punishment for a bad engagement.

Nah they won listen, they just cry waaa waaaa my op biased 2/2/2 gonna melt form casters waaa waaa WE ARE OP PLISS NURFF NOW waa waa MUH META BORKEN waaa waaaa, they just want easymode, keep going thats all about 6VS6 here, dot't let PUG stomp us or we gonna quit

[Luth]

Spoiler:

Hu?
Again? Contradictions?
I made an example that WEs/WHs could stack high resistance mitigation with a 75% resistance cap on the light armor type, as suggested in the quote. That buff is not needed. As well as any buffs to melee DDs in general.
Maybe you want to read it again.

And your answer to a range DD meta in RvR (dunno if it exists atm or some unfounded assertion as usual) is it, to buff that meta further...

And Contradictions again it's gonna be rdd buff or melee dd buff, choose one. I see melee buff vs cloth and mage buff vs heavy armor and damage nerf vs cloth and slightly up for everybody vs medium armor.

And again: no contradictions.
My point was/is that a cloth armor class has virtually nothing to loose from a 25% armor cap, except when they stack armor talis, but even then it's questionable:
iirc conqueror armor value is 1100 which = 18.75% physical damage mitigated
plus: ~500 armor pot (could be also a bit more, doesn't really matter) = 27.27 physical damage mitigated
minus: the armor debuff from the melee train or SW/SH = ~1000 to 1800
minus: 25% - 50% armor penetration through weaponskill

What's left should be way under the 25% cap; probably even with armor talis stacking, the cap shouldn't be scratched vs serious enemies.

Same for the medium armor
Conqueror armor value is 2200 = 37.5% physical damage mitigated
with 500 armor pot = 46.02% physical damage mitigated
with the enemies weaponskill and armor debuffs factored in, also way under the 50% cap.

All what's left is a definite nerf to the tank archetypes resistances, and a possible resistance buff to classes who wear medium and light armor.
The WH in my (oh so contradictorily) example would then loose nothing from this change, but could get a possible buff.
A buff that is absolutely not needed.
The class is a caster/backline killer because of the stealth and burst it can deliver, not because it's "tankyness" vs casters.
But as i wrote, this was just an example. There is also no indication that medium armor needs any buff at all.

There is still no evidence delivered that this change would be good for the game or why it is needed at all.
And "tanks are too hard to kill for my DPS zealot" is no evidence.
But i think we had the evidence topic already on the bugtracker. Good to see some progress.

The next time i post to any balance topic will be in the balance subforum with it's extended rules for some quality discussion.

P.S:
before this comes next: the ingame character window armor stat tooltip must show 100% for the 75% cap, that means you need 4400 armor for the cap, not 3300 like the window suggests.

[Arteker616]

best balance change for scs:

disable the group ques .
why?.
1- save alot of drama .
2- no more nerf cry when pugs get romper stomper mode by organized class combos .
3- healthy for server. bet you all casual scum would be happy.
4- it will teach the pugs to either team work or bust .

[Dabbart]

best balance change for scs:

disable the group ques .
why?.
1- save alot of drama .
2- no more nerf cry when pugs get romper stomper mode by organized class combos .
3- healthy for server. bet you all casual scum would be happy.
4- it will teach the pugs to either team work or bust .

/clap

Best troll post I have read for awhile.

[th3gatekeeper]

1) Large scale sweeping change is listed as the second point of the class balance process right after getting classes working as they did on live. Granted, it might not be exactly on this scale, but it's not as if class balance will be limited to tweaking a few numbers on certain abilities.

I dont see a problem with large scale changes at all in this game. I mean look at all the large scale changes they are doing with RVR... They are still working on a TON of stuff that is going to completely change it from LIVE... I also dont think this armor type = various caps idea is a "HUGE" change... It will definitely change metas and how people play classes, but I think in a very good way!

2) The implication of a WH/WE being highly resistant to casters is the purpose of such a change. In fact, they above all else should be designed to kill casters and have all the tools to do so. Things like torment ignoring armor are counter intuitive design, as that would suggest they're supposed to be attacking tanks.

Agreed 100%. Right now the magic resists are capped at 40% which is why Sorcs and BWs are one of the most played classes with the highest crit and damage. If you bumped up the resistances on light armor classes to 75% that would cut their damage considerable and they would be crying tears about how they cant kill some classes very well. One the contrary though, they would be almost required to bring down tanks. So rather than "take a BW, target a squishy, cast 1,2,3,4,5 and watch them die" it requires more group work...

3) Changes like what I suggested would necessarily alter the meta, but they don't have to be bad for large scale RvR. I'm not sure where you get the implication that the meta would shift to magic damage dealers being dominant considering they would have a harder time with both light and medium armor targets.

Frankly, following up from my #2, I actually see a flock AWAY from magic casters as they would remain very very squishy against melee damage and not be able to kill things as quickly... So its a squishy class with medium damage now in the new system who niche roll is bringing down heavy armor targets quicker...

As it is, large scale fights are a mess. The only ones who can truly initiate are tanks and sturdy melee dps guarded by tanks. They have to run in through massive AoE damage and focus fire from both melee and ranged classes. Under the assumption that this would be one of many general and specific changes, creating specific targets allows the whole warband to engage at the same time rather than relying on tanks to wade in hip deep with little punishment for a bad engagement.

This exactly. Even on my tank, I get blown up in a few seconds without any heals. When I played my Mara last I logged out almost immediately since he died every 4 seconds when he got close to a door... Frankly, it doesnt do much to nerf physical damage compared to what it does now... but it does a TON to nerf magic damage on squishier classes - making them much more viable.



My only concern would be. If you have say a Chosen or Knight, who can buff resists, or get a resist buff, sure you will be well over the 25% cap... But once you are debuffed by a BW/Sorc your "overstacking" will basically just put you back to where you were now... with about 20-25% resists.

So one idea, and I dont know how much work this would be.... would be to change the formula so that you need more resist stats to give you more resists... and then you ADD resistances on the light and medium armor sets so that they end up with a much higher resist value. This way you dont have to change the formulas or anything but merely just award them more resistance stats on their gear.... Just a thought.