[Black Orc] Talk bout da builds ere.

[Rathael87]

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=19786

Found this.

Looks like SM's and WH's are off the table for SMH. At least BW damage is hurt by savin' me hide... and in my experience, BW's are usually the biggest source of damage from order side (Damn Cimator). Nothing seems to decimate groups faster than crazy AoE wizards.

Also DPS archmages. I've seen a few of them and they can do surprisingly scary damage in some scenarios when left alone. They just aren't all that common.

On a side note, I love having Can't hit me when a grace priest is trying to get healing off me. I mean it's not that often grace priests will try to siphon off a tank, but it's funny to deny them when they have no other target.

[Collateral]

The only magic damage in the game is elemental damage. But still SMH is nice for reducing BW damage in large scale. It can actually help quite a lot, especially in combo with chosen aura for dealing back damage. BWs can be negated quite effectively that way.

I said my views on CHM a number of times in different topics so I don't know if it's worth repeating myself again. It's a kinda decent ability that's massively over-priced imo. It only increases one defense stat, unlike the SMs base ability that increases 3. I didn't test it out in a warband yet cuz I think it just wouldn't be worth it. It doesn't help your team mates in any way really, no buffs no nothing (unlike HTL), it only deals damage back (the only thing where it could work well are sieges). Although BOs are one of the squishiest tanks so it could help you survive the initial burst (but if you're specced very tanky you will be able to survive anyway, full conq is very nice). Full boss build is better for spamming Waaagh and snare, coupled with full BL gear you can seriously hurt a lot of enemies in a couple rotations by reducing armour to a whole bunch of them. But this on the other hand makes you pretty squishy since BL is a dps set in essence, so you won't be getting defensive stats out of it (I mean the bonuses). That's why I have amazing healers to keep me alive. It all works like a clock, one part couldn't work without another.

[Rathael87]

I hear you. I only really put CHM up when I know the other team wants to focus me. It really helps to be a bauble bearer or flag carrier in this situation. It's like a working aggro magnet. Otherwise it's dead-weight most of the time except for the rare occasions i get focused (for some reason).

The main reason I specced into it is because Hold Da Line does nothing to help defend against melee pushes in oRvR. Hold Da Line protects your squishies, but you get destroyed by the melee zerg anyway. CHM wont help those behind you, but it stops you from being melee zerged.

I'm going to stick with the build for a while, either way. I had more success in scenarios today without really changing my play-style or having high damage. I moved my guard around, challenged and snare-spammed DPS and harassed healers with silences and knock-downs as usual but things just went better today. Something about destruction seemed more competent. My guard targets weren't dying so easily and I had MDPS assisting me on enemy healers frequently.

On WoDS:

In terms of actual damage mitigated, they are functionally identical. Block defends against all 3 types of damage, while WoDS defends against each of these three types by the same amount (50%). The result is the same: all incoming attacks have a 50% increased chance to be defended against.

However, because CHM is additive with innate block chance from equipment, tactics and renown, It's very easy to get above 70% to 80% block chance with CHM me up. A sword master, to receive the same sort of defenses, would have to somehow acquire 20 to 30% base parry, dodge AND disrupt all together. I'm not sure how easy that is for them, but it sounds a whole lot easier to get 20 to 30% block when the shield already grants a large portion of that just for being equipped.

Of course they get the benefit of being able to go full damage greatsword and still get to use theirs when things get hairy. Black Orc does what I love doing best: being an immovable shield roadblock in oRvR.

On reflection I think if CHM was baseline, it would be almost mandatory to be SnB on black orc... even more so than it already is. You could go absolute full DPS gear and renown with SnB and still have extremely high block chance with CHM up when you get focused.

Makes me wonder if SM's feel like they have to be greatsword since that ability is only usable with one. That seems rather unfair to them.

[Collateral]

SM has self parry buff that has 100% uptime and can easily get to, or over 50% with it. Together with WoDS I believe they can get close to 100% parry, or at least 90%. I didn't say CHM should be a base ability but something should be changed. The speed decrease is really annoying and makes little sense to me. Yes you can block all damage types, but don't forget that block and parry are directional. Dodge and disrupt are not. Which gives 2h SMs amazing kiting capabilities. Yea you have HTL on snb, but WoDS has a bonus 5% increase, and dealing damage back.

And yes, the reason there are so many 2h SM is exactly WoDS and their ability to deal massive damage if left unchecked, while being decently tanky at the same time. There is almost no benefit of going snb for SMs, except maybe in large scale. And trust me, it's not hard to get 30% base parry on 2h, even while going full dps. But what WoDS and EF (self parry buff) make possible, is that you don't have to spent rr on parry, you can focus on damage (crit) or whatever else you need. If you also max out DD with rr (18% in total, plus base from initiative and intelligence, which is the same as snb btw), you can get to 70% DD with WoDS, and coupled with 90% parry, you can get very high defensive stats with just one ability.

But enough about SM, I'm really not trying to bash on anything here or whatever. SM is a great all around class, but needs skill to be played effectively, and there are a few skilled 2h SMs. And of course, all classes have downsides, but some more than others


Back to BO. Just play what you like. I ran with that build for some time and it was fun I agree. Being a big damage sponge makes you effective at tanking, especially when enemies focus you for some reason. You are also very annoying with aoe snare, KD and silence. Iirc YMM stacks with challenge, so don't forget that. It's a very nice ability for shutting down WL burst if you keep it on them as much as you can. I also used to run with AP tactic. You will basically have infinite AP while you're channeling CHM, or just fighting in general.

[Penril]

Last time I checked, SM parry bufs didn't stack.

[Collateral]

They don't? It makes sense actually yes, I didn't think about it. If they stacked they would be able to get to 100% parry, which is a bit ridiculous In any case, with WoDS up they can still get to around 80% parry, which is quite decent.

[Penril]

I can get around 70% on my BG and Chosen, and I can do other things in the meantime. SM has to stand there spinning his sword around like an idiot.

[ragafury]

I can get around 70% on my BG and Chosen, and I can do other things in the meantime. SM has to stand there spinning his sword around like an idiot.

yes and even if, eagle's fly has 5sec uptime, so you would have to reapply continuous.

eagles fly = stuck in melee combat 1vX
WodS = getting heavy focus. HALP PLZ.

still, both are tools BO only can dream off.
44% parry atm. in 2hd as BO. <:-)

[Collateral]

I never mentioned BG or chosen, and I know they have pretty high self buffs as well. I was only comparing SM and bo who are the supposed 'mirror' classes. I have no idea where chosen and BG come in here, they are different classes with different capabilities (but of course they are still tank archetypes). Chosen is at a whole new level when compared to BO, it's like heaven and earth. So I don't see the point in that. If you want to talk about defensive stats in general, every tank class in the game has self buffs (I'm not sure about kotbs but I think he has too) except BO (not counting HTL). So I hope you can understand my position when I talk about these things.

[Penril]

Gud wif shield.
Gud at big choppin
Less stabbin me

BO can get pretty high levels of block. As for parry, I can get close to 60% on mine.