Return of Reckoning

ScreenFofoBan wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 3:46 pm

agemennon675 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 3:35 pm

ScreenFofoBan wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 1:47 pm
so what ? we should removed the spell that could force u to stop in anyway so u can not die from it ?

So is it ok to have an ability that %100 guarantees the kill on a chase in your opinion ? Shouldnt there be a counterplay for things like these ?

100% guarantees ? im pretty sure u are speaking from a solo dps perspective, any healer will tank that M1 on 50km if they had too, it obviously dont burst quick enough to outdmg the heal, and any healer will make u tank that M1 just fine aswell if they heal u, again counterplay of ur own weakness is grouping with people that will help you counter them, not all class are supposed to do everything alone and even for the more "blessed" class to play solo will fold to bigger/more organised number

This is not a solo play group play conversation and I think it would be healthier to put a dmg or reasonable time limit on that one imo

agemennon675 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 7:44 pm

ScreenFofoBan wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 3:46 pm

agemennon675 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 3:35 pm

So is it ok to have an ability that %100 guarantees the kill on a chase in your opinion ? Shouldnt there be a counterplay for things like these ?

100% guarantees ? im pretty sure u are speaking from a solo dps perspective, any healer will tank that M1 on 50km if they had too, it obviously dont burst quick enough to outdmg the heal, and any healer will make u tank that M1 just fine aswell if they heal u, again counterplay of ur own weakness is grouping with people that will help you counter them, not all class are supposed to do everything alone and even for the more "blessed" class to play solo will fold to bigger/more organised number

This is not a solo play group play conversation and I think it would be healthier to put a dmg or reasonable time limit on that one imo

well the ability stopped after ~2 sec if u stop, that pretty reasonable time limit imo (next step is 1sec, that would throw instantly this class exclusive M1 to the trashcan) the problem is UI not properly showing the end of the debuff and sometimes taking extra second to disappear. Also as someone stated before it actually as a limited duration of 1min but u will more likely get rid by just stoping for that said 2sec.

If you look on the buff when you get the M1 on you here is what it says

You will take damage until you stand still for 3 seconds! Stop moving around!

I am sure it was just the way mythic had it, no idea why however its how the comp is set up

Shows in the comp a 3 second delay to dispell buff

thats interesting, the spell say dmg last 2sec, maybe its the source of the UI problem not always showing properly

If you are fighting 1v1 vs a shaman as melee you need to save root or some cc to counter it. As soon as the shaman uses Gorka sez stop just root him and stop moving. If the shaman is already far away then just stop moving and maybe mount up.

Emissary wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 6:50 pm Just remember the dmg buff is only 2 seconds but you have to stop for 3 seconds ... literally like another poster just said once you realize its a root that only lasts 3 seconds your life changes. I can say I cant remember the last time gork has ever stopped me dead.

This point( which for some unknown reason is being repeated in here) is unfortunately completely ignoring the real power of this ability and therefore also ignoring the main point i made in #1 post.

Reminder: Standing still does not counter Gork Sez Stop when cast by a Shaman with average IQ. The shaman will cast this on someone( often ranged trying to get away from melee) when being chased by other players including the shaman himself, in these situations standing still will result in a high probability of instant death. There are so many situations in this game where one can't even afford to stand still 1 second much less 3 seconds.

Hence Gorzk Sez Stop acts like an execution move from 100 range( death sentence for squishy characters) since the alternative to standing still is not an option that can be sustained with this M1 quickly ramping up to unreasonable amounts of damage for a M1 morale. This is why a timer limit is needed to balance it.

Now that it has been confirmed to be 3 seconds, it is even worse. 3 seconds of standing still is very rarely an option when being chased.

To summerize:

The shaman has a tool which does not require any risk to use, done from long range, has extreme returns with very little effort required. Once the shaman player realizes how to use this, it becomes highly exploitable, i.e on targets being chased by players allied with the shaman, not in low risk situations where someone can afford to stand still. Not in 1vs1 situations with the shaman .

So let's compare it to other M1 effects with a similar purpose, to disable/ kill your target through a tactical advantage.

Champions Challenge : Requires melee range(Gork 100 range). Disables the caster so it has a risk component attached to it( Gork no risk at all, done safe from long range with the shaman happily doing whatever he was doing). Does no damage( Gork does a lot of damage). It is longer lasting but is far easier to counterplay since the caster needs to be in your face, i,e melee range on a slow character( tanks) in order to use it( again- Gork 100 range).

M1 Roots , 65ft range, does 900 damage 5 sec root. Can be countered by root breaks, damage is not significant. Can be immune to the root effect.

These two M1 morales are obviously balanced with the rest of the game, Gork Sez Stop is not.

TL;dr How anyone can think this M1 morale is balanced at 3 seconds standing still with a max morale ( unmitigated) damage of 18.000 is beyond me. With balance in mind this ability obviously need to be caped, have a duration of max 10 seconds( which is still 3k morale ''true'' damage, way more than any equivalent at this tier M1)

Farrul wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2024 9:01 am

Emissary wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 6:50 pm Just remember the dmg buff is only 2 seconds but you have to stop for 3 seconds ... literally like another poster just said once you realize its a root that only lasts 3 seconds your life changes. I can say I cant remember the last time gork has ever stopped me dead.

This point( which for some unknown reason is being repeated in here) is unfortunately completely ignoring the real power of this ability and therefore also ignoring the main point i made in #1 post.

Reminder: Standing still does not counter Gork Sez Stop when cast by a Shaman with average IQ. The shaman will cast this on someone( often ranged trying to get away from melee) when being chased by other players including the shaman himself, in these situations standing still will result in a high probability of instant death. There are so many situations in this game where one can't even afford to stand still 1 second much less 3 seconds.

Hence Gorzk Sez Stop acts like an execution move from 100 range( death sentence for squishy characters) since the alternative to standing still is not an option that can be sustained with this M1 quickly ramping up to unreasonable amounts of damage for a M1 morale. This is why a timer limit is needed to balance it.

Now that it has been confirmed to be 3 seconds, it is even worse. 3 seconds of standing still is very rarely an option when being chased.

To summerize:

The shaman has a tool which does not require any risk to use, done from long range, has extreme returns with very little effort required. Once the shaman player realizes how to use this, it becomes highly exploitable, i.e on targets being chased by players allied with the shaman, not in low risk situations where someone can afford to stand still. Not in 1vs1 situations with the shaman .

Here is what you conveniently ignore- that "no risk 100 ft execution" requires building a moral.

Here are abilities which do the same, and don't require building a moral, or for that matter dedicating a moral slot to it:

- rp/zealot stagger, 6 sec duration unlike 3 sec on Gork Sez Stop, same 100 ft range
- Stop, Drop, And Roll- 100 ft range, 2 sec duration however its a kd so target can't do anything at all, requires before dot which also has a 100 ft range

Now, here is an even more fun thing- since you are speaking specifically about a situation where one player is chased by several, let me introduce you to an interesting ability in the game called mount. Because any 100 ft ability can dismount just fine, no building of moral required, and once someone is dismounted the mounted melee will catch him just as fine as if he was standing still for 3 sec.

In other words, this entire thread is your attempt to find something to whine about.

Farrul wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2024 9:01 am ...
These two M1 morales are obviously balanced with the rest of the game, Gork Sez Stop is not.

TL;dr How anyone can think this M1 morale is balanced at 3 seconds standing still with a max morale ( unmitigated) damage of 18.000 is beyond me. With balance in mind this ability obviously need to be caped, have a duration of max 10 seconds( which is still 3k morale ''true'' damage, way more than any equivalent at this tier M1)

You forgot to mention IB's Rock Clutch in Morale analysis but regardless, hear me out:

Gork says stop can be alternatively read as such:
''You force your target in place for 3 seconds and deal 600dmg/2s. The target may continue to move if they want to, but they will continue to suffer 600 dmg/2s for as long as they haven't moved for 3s''

While, as you correctly surmise, GSS in a sense ignores immunities, cannot be cleansed and has 100 ft range (unlike other ''similar'' purpose morales), it has one huge drawback. Making your target stand still is not enforced, just incentivized. It cannot always be ignored by the enemy, so here is where we can go into the balance discussion:

I will break down the game into 4 cases of (RvR) balance and list my opinion on the effectiveness of GSS as a killing/kill-secure tool in that content:

• oRvR - wb v wb: Here shaman is gimping their wb by using GSS instead of M2 or higher. Even ignoring that, for the target (in the confusion of battle) I'd say it's low-medium risk to die from it with none-low impact for the actual fight

• Scenarios - 12v12: Here GSS is easier to spot (due to less stuff going on), can be more deadly if ignored, but also can be more forgiving to stay in place than in rvr (due to less incoming dps). Overall: low-medium risk and medium impact (due to less players).

• Small scale - 6v6 Pretty much the same as before. Affects rdps classes that need to kite more than others, but it can be countered by proper punts and other panic-button hits by your teamates: medium risk and medium impact

• Small scale - 1vX And now we come to the point of contention. low-extreme risk and extreme impact. Low risk for when you are close to wc or for when fighting just few enemies or for when you are heal class, extreme for the opposite. Extreme impact because you are only one and you die.

Using the following template as an example and assuming equal importance for balance on all 4 cases:

• oRvR - wb v wb: Between 4 and 9, average 6.5 risk rating

• Scenarios - 12v12: Between 6 and 9, average 7.5 risk rating

• Small scale - 6v6 Risk rating of 9

• Small scale - 1vX Between 10 and 25, average risk rating = 17.5

Now averaging all scenarios with equal weights we get a total average risk rating of 10.1, which is in the midpoint of the ''Undesirable'' situation category. An inconvenience on average that can sometimes be deadly.

For comparison, Champ Challenge (going through it quickly) in my opinion would be:

• oRvR - wb v wb: low-medium risk, none-low impact --> 6.5 risk rating

• Scenarios - 12v12: medium risk, medium impact --> 9 risk rating

• Small scale - 6v6 medium risk, medium impact --> 9 risk rating

• Small scale - 1vX negligible - extreme risk, extreme impact --> 15 risk rating

Total average of 9.9, pretty much the same as GSS.
So I would definitely say that overall Gork Says Stop is as balanced as other similar M1s. I even tried to showcase that with numbers. Sure, it can be oppressive vs some classes that other M1s aren't, but that is also the case for GSS (Champ Challenge will get a hybrid healer killed in 1vX more often than GSS for example)

I will not elaborate more on ranged staggers, ranged KDs and mounts since Zxul already covered them before I finished my reply.

The fact that people are constantly complaining about a skill that is supposedly so unbalanced in this game is nothing new. Is no one surprised that there are fewer players every month? I remember times when the server was full. With your constant complaining, no one should be surprised if the server is soon dead. Oh, I forgot, it's already as good as dead if you look at the numbers. Well, happy complaining, the last one to leave turns off the lights.

agemennon675 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 3:35 pm

ScreenFofoBan wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 1:47 pm

agemennon675 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 1:40 pm I cant believe so many responses here have saying stop cant understand if they are being sarcastic or serious so here let me explain it to you simply, if you stop you die in RvR in many situations you cannot afford to stop

so what ? we should removed the spell that could force u to stop in anyway so u can not die from it ?

So is it ok to have an ability that %100 guarantees the kill on a chase in your opinion ? Shouldnt there be a counterplay for things like these ?

Why do you skip counter play like getting heals? When there is no healer nearby and you expose yourself in a situation where you have to move, you made a mistake, which likely results in your death. Deal with it and avoid such a mistake next time.