lumpi33 wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 10:32 pm
That's your personal opinion. The numbers say something else.
I think in the fast paced ORVR game both, the Engi and the Magus have big issues. They need the people stacked up and stationary to ramp up damage. That's just not the case in ORVR where everybody is moving and fights are over pretty quickly (unless it is a keep or fort fight). They might have a useable ST build but that's just not good in ORVR where it is mostly warbands vs warbands. AOE is what shines in that situations and Slayer/Choppa/WL/Mara/Sorc/BW/mSH can do that best. They do it best because of their mechanic, their tactics like armor pierce and most of it can be stacked. SW/Magus/Engi neither have the good mechanic nor the good armor pierce they would need, nor the stacking on primary aoe abilities so they are falling behind in ORVR.
That's what the numbers are showing. That's for sure not a player issue. That's a class issue.
You too bluntly relay on those numbers trying to shoehorn them to your personal opinion. From such sample size i could consider only that roaming (especially solo) and pugging were actually pretty popular according to activity shown in that period. Probably not much more
In regards to engi/magi:
> the Engi and the Magus have big issues
I could agree with that but not in terms of pure DPS numbers they are capable of doing (and there are alot of proves for that done by skilled players in each game mode). If played well with proper GCD management they by raw numbers are on par with other DPS despite everything while outshining everyone in fights not in the totally open field.
Yes tho, most people are unfamiliar with game&class mechanic, really bad in GCD management and so they do very low DPS on overpopulated class.
> They need the people stacked up
Just as any other AoE DPS you mention. No difference
> stationary to ramp up damage
They do have tools to overcome this (deamon/turret that makes you cast on a move, tactic). Is it fair trade-off, right or wrong, balanced or not is totally different question that numbers have nothing to do with.
In the end its down to player ability to read the battle and react. Skilled players on those classes did prove that engi/magi in organized environment can be at the top of damage done with same contribution to kills as other dps. And doing that they arent being stationary at all. Movement is life, engi/magi can also do that but have to carry the burden (the pet) around smartly and thats more demanding for player than on other AoE DPS classes. Hence i said very very few play AoE DPS engi/magi properly. Is it fair, such high skill ceiling, should it be so or not is the other question that your numbers wont help to answer.
> That's just not the case in ORVR where everybody is moving
Wrong. ORVR is most stale part of all the content. It sadly has least movement involved that is proven by heatmaps that Dalen made. People just bang each other between warcamps at best. On average most of the fights are boring snoozefests or pug stomping.
> fights are over pretty quickly (unless it is a keep or fort fight)
Only true for ragtag pugs. Two equal force are able to fight forever. Proven by many city sieges and the reason why people determine a winner by who reach certain amount of kills faster in premade fights in empty zones.
> Magus/Engi neither have the good mechanic
You claim they do low damage contribution to kills. You reason it with bad mechanic. However their mechanic is allowing them to do very high damage. Logic?
I can agree that they have clunky mechanic that is a big burden and absolutely not noob friendly so players with average or low skills struggle really hard on those classes but players like e.g. scaurge, mek and few others (i do respect skilled magi/engi and mentioned just few, by no means, i dont wont to offend the others who i dont mention but you can look them up in ranked leaderboards, /respect) who's got a grasp still top dmg. For really skilled and good players its possible to "adapt. overcome. dominate" (C)
So again i fully disagree with what you claim. Their mechanic doesnt lead to them doing low dmg.
> nor the good armor pierce they would need
/facepalm, yeah magi especially. also check out builds on sov engi's...
> nor the stacking on primary aoe abilities
If those would stack most of gamemodes will instantly become absolutely unplayable (narrow SCs, sieges, forts, cities. open field lakes would be least affected but thats the only thing). Point.
> so they are falling behind in ORVR
Only in case if player is average or low skill. They are not stackable in warbands. Game requires way lower of those classes than there are people who want to play them.
> That's what the numbers are showing.
They are not showing that. You just shoehorn your personal opinion in them. You read them wrong.
> That's for sure not a player issue.
Surely it is. If it wouldnt be then it would be plain impossible for scaurge to reach 12 millions of damage done in one of the movement intense gamemode - city siege.
> That's a class issue.
Class does have issues. Some of good players of those classes would agree that napalm nerf and turret stacks nerf werent justified enough, however in organized premade city sieges skilled engi/magi were leaving rest classes behind on dmg done by ~x2 (doing 8-12 millions of dmg, while slayers could barely reach 5 millions) which some people didnt find fair.
I myself believe that they need to be reworked to be more easier and noob friendly with no such breakdowns. Maybe the guy with proposal for build in tactics is right and that could be a good start to test out (or make stacks build up time faster), however im afraid that by toptier players this could lead to unknown levels of dominance. Gap of their performance between bad player vs. elite player is overwhelming, much larger than on any of the rest classes. But damage done is not their most weakest spot thats for sure.
