Meanwhile, Lets talk about IB/BG usefulnes

[Penril]

I literally said that its inferior to Sav + brut but wanted to point out that you can get kd AND still have deadly clutch further more I said that It can work but ONLY if your 6 man can play around it and mara becomes a more of a debuffer instead of pure dps.

You are making the mara a debuffer and letting the BO handle the DPS. It would be much better to just let the Mara handle the DPS and let the BO take care of CC. Like, a million times better.

This isnt about the worth of Can You Hearz, this about the value of dropping 14 points up a tree to get a 3 second kd when there are multiple other potentials sources for one and your argument hinges on that you could be on a 6 man with only one tank and in that too a Blorc not a chosen.

Yes, it sucks that you have to spend 14 points in Da Toughest just get a KD. But it is what it is. As for a 6-man... even if there is a Chosen there, KDs have a 20 sec CD. Not to mention he could be punted/rooted/staggered. 2 KDs in a group is preferable to 1 KD and, as i said, better to have it on the BO than on the Mara (not to mention the AoE Mara KD will give away immunities to everyone close).

Smart ordo realize that your specd like that and not a real dmg dealer then they will just start ignoring you

Are you saying that a Brawler + Toughest BO does poor damage? DYG hits really, really hard. The only thing you are missing is the double (bugged) WS buff from NCM. Which Maras don't need anyway, because PB. Brawler + Toughest BO still keeps THC, SYG and GS.

[Bretin]

Mara can fuction as your primary debuffer in your 6 man and spec sav + monstro for kd and still get deadly clutch, is it inferior to sav + brut but can be strong if your party can play around it

oh yeah that sounds like an awesome idea and your mrd spec is pretty gud. just cripple the most op class in the game and let a stupid orc or w/e take his spot when they do by far more than 50% dmg less to a halfbrained target! let's just **** on guillotine, mutated aggressor and growing instability

you should also drop piercing bite and take rend asunder. sorry to be harsh but i've never seen something more stupid.

there is a reason why mrd has been called out to be the most op class in the game. it's definitely not because he can be a cool group support. when they gave GI to the class with the highest tooltipp dmg ingame they forgot that the mrd is also the class with the highest defense on a mdps (except a wl with baited trap). combined with piercing bite and the fact that he has the best snare (unpurgable), the highest armor and hp debuff, the best healdebuff you have multiple reasons to not **** make him a "supporter". a mrd in a 6 man group is always the main dps + the one with the best debuffs ig. everyone else has to play around the mrd!

[Luth]

AOE specced mara = wasted group spot imo. This > everything else.

Though the OP bugs will be fixed or have already been fixed on RoR (e.g. non cleansable snare, healdebuff tactic healing the mara on non healdebuffable heals, abilities that don't req. a mutation are affected by piercing bites, TE +65 feet range abuse).

Edit: on RoR also "axethrows" don't proc anything anymore.

[Toldavf]

Ib used to have more utility packing as it did a 4 second undefendable KD, now what it brigs to the group is a punt which while long isn't as good as a knights when upgraded, an out going heal debuff which doks cant cleanse, a nice aoe snare to balance out celerity a bit, a crit debuff and an armour debuff which while smaller then a lions is still loved by slayer of and there's on demand ap for the slayer with watch and learn as well.

Hmm that's most of them well i think its a solid tank

[Gerv]

Why is this even a discussion Grulo is the best BO there is/was/will be.

[radiantknight]

I have always wondered why IB is the only class in t1 now who can KD you, since BG gets KD only on r16.
So I was at this site ppl recommend as latest and all, and it's said there, tht IB KD is a 9-point path of vengeance skill. Well, I get that it may have been changed here cause of the balance stuff and all, but is it fair to give such skill at t1?

[Azarael]

You're thinking of Cave-In. IB has two knockdowns - Shield of Reprisal and Cave-In.

[radiantknight]

Ah, sorry, didn't see it, thanks for pointing it out

[Toldavf]

I'd love to get my 4 second KD back damn Black guards Lording their 2 more seconds over me *shakes fist*

[Vdova]

I have payed IB on live a lot and my most favourite build was 2H cawe-iin with AOE snare,heal debuff,absorb bubble: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=ib; ... 0:;0:0:0:0:
Even on live playing IB was the most tough melee gameplay because ofusing so many skills my action bar slots were all filled.

I never played BG so I have decide roll one on RoR. What a surprise, that playing BG on 20 is even harder than IB. He has significaly lower dmg outpoot than IB thanks to absence of heavy blow,dmg increase scalling with hate for offensive attacs, but has toughness and wp/int debuff.
At the end IB has more buffs( armor, corporal resists+self 50%AA speed), while BG has more debuffs(wp/int, toughness) and absorb bubble.
IB has has knockback While BG 5s knockdown.
At this level BG can buff his toughness up to 45% at 100 hate thanks to specable tactic Terryfying foe but its horribly conected to PvE skill Hatefull strike which generate double threat (agro) and will be never used in PvP without it.
My opinion is, that BG is tougher for him self, but in final is less effective for group than IB even at this stage. Player must use even more hotkeys and has less buffs for dark protector target(no armor or resist buff)
In further patches I would really like to see proper mirror to IB 2h spec(path of vengeance) because BGs 2h tree is competely nonsence for solo nor for party play.