Return of Reckoning

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:49 pm**

Foofmonger wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:44 pm
Sundowner wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:41 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:34 pm

Can you please stop making Marauder balance posts already? This kind of statement is just laughworthy, and your overall point here completely misses the actual issues of the Marauder class. Simply put, your balance opinions are lazy, your analysis is weak, and your conclusions are incorrect.

You aren't helping. If you need to be taught how to burst on the Marauder, message me in-game and I'll show you how to gear and use your rotation.

Sincerely, - Marauders.
sadly, when mara's cry that they do not have burst of wl (class with close to nothing aoe utility), while having better survivability, debuffs and roughly the same aoe dmg and have higher main stat modifiers to ST abilities (buffed), they cannot be taken seriously, because they want just overtuned character which has ST burst, st sustained damage, survivability, aoe dmg, aoe utility and debuffs, it will not be taken seriously, not by other players (excl. destor fanboys), not by GMs.
Yep, it's called bias. That being said, I don't like order bias either. I like neither.

The Marauder is not a perfect class, and does have some issues. The solution to those issues is not as you say "to give the class everything with no downsides" (indicative of destro bias), or to say "Marauder is fine and best class noob, L2P" (indicative of order bias).

On that I am on the same page, if there is data that mara's st is very underperforming in comparison with other mdps and it is not mitigated by some other elements (i.e. better aoe utility) it should be fixed. But comparing mara to WL and SW is just lazy, they are different heroes with different mechanics, giving mara wl's burst will result only in overtuned class which is perfect for literally every role mdps can have. sadly (or not much) heroes in ROR and not tuned to every playstyle (solo roam, small scale, large scale, cities). if you pick WE or WH you know that you will do great on solo roam, good in small-scale, but your abilities will be limited in cities. that applies to almost all characters and mara should not be exception from that rule.

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:59 pm**

Sundowner wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:49 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:44 pm
Sundowner wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:41 pm

sadly, when mara's cry that they do not have burst of wl (class with close to nothing aoe utility), while having better survivability, debuffs and roughly the same aoe dmg and have higher main stat modifiers to ST abilities (buffed), they cannot be taken seriously, because they want just overtuned character which has ST burst, st sustained damage, survivability, aoe dmg, aoe utility and debuffs, it will not be taken seriously, not by other players (excl. destor fanboys), not by GMs.
Yep, it's called bias. That being said, I don't like order bias either. I like neither.

The Marauder is not a perfect class, and does have some issues. The solution to those issues is not as you say "to give the class everything with no downsides" (indicative of destro bias), or to say "Marauder is fine and best class noob, L2P" (indicative of order bias).
On that I am on the same page, if there is data that mara's st is very underperforming in comparison with other mdps and it is not mitigated by some other elements (i.e. better aoe utility) it should be fixed. But comparing mara to WL and SW is just lazy, they are different heroes with different mechanics, giving mara wl's burst will result only in overtuned class which is perfect for literally every role mdps can have. sadly (or not much) heroes in ROR and not tuned to every playstyle (solo roam, small scale, large scale, cities). if you pick WE or WH you know that you will do great on solo roam, good in small-scale, but your abilities will be limited in cities. that applies to almost all characters and mara should not be exception from that rule.

Yea that's a perfectly fair take. There isn't much data for why Marauders "debuffs" are underperforming, especially for something like the wounds debuff which people just don't even spec because it's so bad. Unfortunately sometimes you need to do a qualitative (not quantitative) analysis.

Example: Marauder wounds debuff used to be 160 wounds at max spec points (15 in the path). For a single target wounds debuff. It was nerfed in 2017 (when the server was in tier 2) because it was too strong at that value. It was nerfed down to be a 100 wounds debuff at max spec points (15 in the path). I don't have the values for the AoE wounds debuffs offhand, but if memory serves, they are (at max value) basically just around the same values (slightly lower, I think in the 80s/90s wounds debuff).

So now this should be indicative of a qualitative issue. If a single target debuff ability, that you need to spec for, on a DPS class (that doesn't have tank/support level utility), is barely better in terms of value than multiple AoE wounds debuffs, this should logically indicate the the Marauder's single target version is not very good, and in reality, it's garbagio.

Now I'm focusing on that specific ability, but if we look at the Marauder's Savagery path as a whole, we can see multiple issues:

1. The 3 point tactic (and all 3 point Marauder tactics) is bad.
2. The 5 point ability is a relic of the past (-50% ap regen, single target debuff) that doesn't do anything about other sources of non-baseline AP regen. With all the various ways to get AP that isn't "base regen" this ability barely does anything.
3. The Marauder is the only MDPS class that has to spec an 11 point tactic to get a 50% heal debuff, and then use a tactic slot.
4. The wounds debuff is terrible.
5. The M4 is terrible.

Out of the 5 core abilities, none of them are stellar either. Rend is decent for sustained damage, and probably the best core ability. The toughness debuff is pretty unexciting, but it's servicable (again pretty redundant with a Chosen just AoE debuffing toughness, the value isn't very good on the Mara tough debuff). Gut Ripper is alright, but having it be a parry reactional is again, underwhelming. A single target 25% heal debuff (Chosens can AoE debuff 25%, heck WLs can AoE debuff 25%), is pretty bad. All of the Marauders "Barb" abilities (touch of rot in this case) are straight garbage wastes of GCDs.

So out of the whole path, there's basically 2 abilities that are anywhere near "good". And it's the armor debuff (same exact armor debuff the WL gets), and the AP drain tactic (which is ok, but because it's in the savagery tree you can't AoE AP drain and AoE damage efficiently).

One of the reasons you see so many AoE Marauders, is because how bad Savagery is. There's very little point to speccing into this path in optimal situations. Usually the best way to play a the role of a Savagery Marauder is to "not bring a Marauder", and just cover their debuffs with BG/Chosens/BOs/DPS DoKs/Choppas/Witch Elves. To be frank, it's a single target debuff spec on a DPS class that can't debuff better than AoE debuffs on tanks. It's bad.

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:17 pm**

Again, if mara does something worse than other classes, it doesn't mean it should be buffed (see, not every class is tuned to do everything).

If I apply the same logic to WL aoe it is really bad. it has only several features 50% armor ignore (that mara has) and interrupt of 15ft around (mara has 40 ft front, much better). wl cannot aoe kd, doesn't have any aoe debuffs (mara has aoe kd, ws/ini debuff). WL cannot use 50% crit modifier in cities/large scale (it is tied to pet and it melts from aoe) and so on.

see, every class has part that it is does not excel at and this cannot be changed without overtuning classes and making other classes useless, or mirroring all dps classes.

If I propose to buff WLs aoe utility, I will get the same feedback as this post got. My hero doesn't have x therefore it needs buff goes against game design, where all classes have almost niche roles and buffs should be made with great caution

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:24 pm**

Foofmonger wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:44 pm
Sundowner wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:41 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:34 pm

Can you please stop making Marauder balance posts already? This kind of statement is just laughworthy, and your overall point here completely misses the actual issues of the Marauder class. Simply put, your balance opinions are lazy, your analysis is weak, and your conclusions are incorrect.

You aren't helping. If you need to be taught how to burst on the Marauder, message me in-game and I'll show you how to gear and use your rotation.

Sincerely, - Marauders.
sadly, when mara's cry that they do not have burst of wl (class with close to nothing aoe utility), while having better survivability, debuffs and roughly the same aoe dmg and have higher main stat modifiers to ST abilities (buffed), they cannot be taken seriously, because they want just overtuned character which has ST burst, st sustained damage, survivability, aoe dmg, aoe utility and debuffs, it will not be taken seriously, not by other players (excl. destor fanboys), not by GMs.
Yep, it's called bias. That being said, I don't like order bias either. I like neither.

The Marauder is not a perfect class, and does have some issues. The solution to those issues is not as you say "to give the class everything with no downsides" (indicative of destro bias), or to say "Marauder is fine and best class noob, L2P" (indicative of order bias). The class does not need raw damage boosts at all.

At this point, the right call is probably to revert the 2017 nerfs to Marauders that gutted their wounds debuff. This would be a nice boost to the Savagery path to give it an actual purpose and not make one of its (once good) abilities useless.

Nobody says mara needs a damage buff or something like that. All i said sav/brut mara needs arrangements, but orda funs always like to ruin topics. (When i said mara can get wl's brust was all joke, but some of us really insists on not understanding.)

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:27 pm**

I just to state that i, somewhat, agree with you but this made my day:

wildwindblows wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:48 pm How destro win sc's when wl and msw brust potential almost double of mara's brust? Where is the balance here?

wildwindblows wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:09 pm
Sundowner wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:39 am Then up wl's utility from third tree at mara's level, equal st burst and utility for mara and wl, agree?
Oh man, you didn't get the point. When i create topic about mara, it ruined by order fans. Never mind. It is all good.

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:47 pm**

Sundowner wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:17 pm Again, if mara does something worse than other classes, it doesn't mean it should be buffed (see, not every class is tuned to do everything).

If I apply the same logic to WL aoe it is really bad. it has only several features 50% armor ignore (that mara has) and interrupt of 15ft around (mara has 40 ft front, much better). wl cannot aoe kd, doesn't have any aoe debuffs (mara has aoe kd, ws/ini debuff). WL cannot use 50% crit modifier in cities/large scale (it is tied to pet and it melts from aoe) and so on.

see, every class has part that it is does not excel at and this cannot be changed without overtuning classes and making other classes useless, or mirroring all dps classes.

If I propose to buff WLs aoe utility, I will get the same feedback as this post got. My hero doesn't have x therefore it needs buff goes against game design, where all classes have almost niche roles and buffs should be made with great caution

This take is now wrong and is missing the point. It's not that the Mara "does something worse than other classes" it's that "the Marauder path that is SUPPOSED to do X thing does not do X thing".

You cannot apply the same logic to the WL AoE, and it's not really bad. For posterity, I play both Maruders and WL classes, and your analysis here on the difference is really basic and misses a ton of nuance. Furthermore, you already stated that you shouldn't be comparing the Marauder to the WL directly, in another one of your posts talking to the OP, and then you go down that same illogical rabbit hole that you just said made no sense. I'm gonna state my point clearly here:

You are Order biased, just like the OP here is Destro biased. I take neither of your basal analysis seriously.

Here is the major point that you are missing.

The WL has 3 paths, each path is designed to do "something".

Hunter spec is designed to give the WL AoE damage and mobility. It does this, and its a good path, which is why people spec it.
Axeman spec is designed to give the WL ST burst. It does this, and its a good path, which is why people spec it.
Guardian is designed to give the WL a strong pet, defensive boosts, and utility. It's "ok", in small scale, but because pets have issues in large scale content it becomes less viable there. Guardian WL could probably use a little love for a few things frankly.

The Marauder has 3 paths, each path is designed to do "something".

Brutality spec is designed to give the Mara ST burst. It does this, and its a good path, which is why people spec it.
Monstro spec is designed to give the Mara AoE damage, surivability, and utlity boosts. It does this, and is a good path, which is why people spec it.
Savagery spec is designed to give the Mara ST sustained damage and strong ST debuffs. IT DOES NOT DO THIS, therefore, it is not a good path.

It's extremely simple. The Savagery path is un-functional for it's intended design. Stop trying to compare it to the WL, it makes 0 sense. The WL also has some garbage abilities and tactics but it has absolutely nothing to do with the Marauder's bad Savagery path, because it's a role/path the WL doesn't even have! You cannot compare apples to orange and expect it to make sense.

It's absolutely fine to ask for WL buffs if you make a coherent argument. You are not. You are simply oozing Order bias and saying "Mara can't have buff until WL gets all the mirrored buffs", but I'm not asking for the Marauder to be buffed to have WL mobility or burst damage. I'm asking for it's debuff path, a role the WL doesn't even have, to be a functional spec instead of hot garbage. If you want to see guardian WL buffs, that's a completely separate topic and if your analysis is "give them the Marauder abilities" you also don't know how balance works, just like the OP in this thread.

If the BW AoE damage spec didn't do AoE damage, would that be fine with you?
If the Slayer AoE damage spec didn't do AoE damage, would that be fine with you?
If the Knights utility spec had no utility, would that be fine with you?

No, it wouldn't would it? So then why it is fine with you that the Marauder's single target debuff path sucks at single target debuffs? Is there a coherent argument you can make?

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:52 pm**

Change title to "make Mara a WL mirror"

It would save quite a lot of typing

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:00 pm**

Foofmonger wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:47 pm
Sundowner wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:17 pm Again, if mara does something worse than other classes, it doesn't mean it should be buffed (see, not every class is tuned to do everything).

If I apply the same logic to WL aoe it is really bad. it has only several features 50% armor ignore (that mara has) and interrupt of 15ft around (mara has 40 ft front, much better). wl cannot aoe kd, doesn't have any aoe debuffs (mara has aoe kd, ws/ini debuff). WL cannot use 50% crit modifier in cities/large scale (it is tied to pet and it melts from aoe) and so on.

see, every class has part that it is does not excel at and this cannot be changed without overtuning classes and making other classes useless, or mirroring all dps classes.

If I propose to buff WLs aoe utility, I will get the same feedback as this post got. My hero doesn't have x therefore it needs buff goes against game design, where all classes have almost niche roles and buffs should be made with great caution
This take is now wrong and is missing the point. It's not that the Mara "does something worse than other classes" it's that "the Marauder path that is SUPPOSED to do X thing does not do X thing".

You cannot apply the same logic to the WL AoE, and it's not really bad. For posterity, I play both Maruders and WL classes, and your analysis here on the difference is really basic and misses a ton of nuance. Furthermore, you already stated that you shouldn't be comparing the Marauder to the WL directly, in another one of your posts talking to the OP, and then you go down that same illogical rabbit hole that you just said made no sense. I'm gonna state my point clearly here:

You are Order biased, just like the OP here is Destro biased. I take neither of your basal analysis seriously.

Here is the major point that you are missing.

The WL has 3 paths, each path is designed to do "something".

Hunter spec is designed to give the WL AoE damage and mobility. It does this, and its a good path, which is why people spec it.
Axeman spec is designed to give the WL ST burst. It does this, and its a good path, which is why people spec it.
Guardian is designed to give the WL a strong pet, defensive boosts, and utility. It's "ok", in small scale, but because pets have issues in large scale content it becomes less viable there. Guardian WL could probably use a little love for a few things frankly.

The Marauder has 3 paths, each path is designed to do "something".

Brutality spec is designed to give the Mara ST burst. It does this, and its a good path, which is why people spec it.
Monstro spec is designed to give the Mara AoE damage, surivability, and utlity boosts. It does this, and is a good path, which is why people spec it.
Savagery spec is designed to give the Mara ST sustained damage and strong ST debuffs. IT DOES NOT DO THIS, therefore, it is not a good path.

It's extremely simple. The Savagery path is un-functional for it's intended design. Stop trying to compare it to the WL, it makes 0 sense. The WL also has some garbage abilities and tactics but it has absolutely nothing to do with the Marauder's bad Savagery path, because it's a role/path the WL doesn't even have! You cannot compare apples to orange and expect it to make sense.

It's absolutely fine to ask for WL buffs if you make a coherent argument. You are not. You are simply oozing Order bias and saying "Mara can't have buff until WL gets all the mirrored buffs", but I'm not asking for the Marauder to be buffed to have WL mobility or burst damage. I'm asking for it's debuff path, a role the WL doesn't even have, to be a functional spec instead of hot garbage. If you want to see guardian WL buffs, that's a completely separate topic and if your analysis is "give them the Marauder abilities" you also don't know how balance works, just like the OP in this thread.

If the BW AoE damage spec didn't do AoE damage, would that be fine with you?
If the Slayer AoE damage spec didn't do AoE damage, would that be fine with you?
If the Knights utility spec had no utility, would that be fine with you?

No, it wouldn't would it? So then why it is fine with you that the Marauder's single target debuff path sucks at single target debuffs? Is there a coherent argument you can make? Also, do you actually play both realms at all? I really hate being lectured on Mara/WL from people who don't play these classes. I have an 83 Mara (also was a server first RR100 Mara on live) and a 56 WL (yea hes low I'm climbing with him now), what RR is your WL/Mara?

Foofmonger thanks, I always appreciate your guidance and comments. First of all, I didn't create this topic to make a proposal. I just want to share my ranked sc experiences and want to know what others experienced. Because of this order funs, my topic were ruined. I don't care what they think or I'm not saying mara is weak or strong class. Order always doing this

But you comments are precious as always.

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:03 pm**

mara on single target need .

Thunderous blow and deadly clutch to revert the 2017 nerfs ( They made sense at the time t2/t3 time) . After this , mara is perfect

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:04 pm**

wildwindblows wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:00 pm
Foofmonger thanks, I always appreciate your guidance and comments. First of all, I didn't create this topic to make a proposal. I just want to share my ranked sc experiences and want to know what others experienced. Because of this order funs, my topic were ruined. I don't care what they think or I'm not saying mara is weak or strong class. Order always doing this But you comments are precious as always.

Marauder is not good in ranked 6v6, or 6v6 in general. I agree with you.

I just don't agree with your reason of "why" it isn't good. To make a Marauder viable in 6v6, you gotta fix Savagery debuffs to be worthwhile, not increase damage.

Return of Reckoning

Brust potential of Mara comapred to order mdps

Re: Brust potential of Mara comapred to order mdps

Re: Brust potential of Mara comapred to order mdps

Re: Brust potential of Mara comapred to order mdps

Re: Brust potential of Mara comapred to order mdps

Re: Brust potential of Mara comapred to order mdps

Re: Brust potential of Mara comapred to order mdps

Re: Brust potential of Mara comapred to order mdps

Re: Brust potential of Mara comapred to order mdps

Re: Brust potential of Mara comapred to order mdps

Re: Brust potential of Mara comapred to order mdps