Return of Reckoning

jaxamillian wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 10:09 pm Thanks for the replies folks.

I have learned several things

- destruction don't want the easy pug city farm to stop
- how dare you play a non wanted city class, reroll immediatly
- it's incredibly lazy not joining a group and you should be immediatly executed irl
- most people are afraid of some sort of a challenge

I apologise to everyone immediatly for DARING to suggest some sort of an even playing field in cities (which are perfectly balanced right now as everyone can clearly see!)

Yeah that sounds about right. 99% of people against any sort of balancing pug vs premade are destro mains acting out of self interest.

jaxamillian wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 10:09 pm Thanks for the replies folks.

I have learned several things

- destruction don't want the easy pug city farm to stop
- how dare you play a non wanted city class, reroll immediatly
- it's incredibly lazy not joining a group and you should be immediatly executed irl
- most people are afraid of some sort of a challenge

I apologise to everyone immediatly for DARING to suggest some sort of an even playing field in cities (which are perfectly balanced right now as everyone can clearly see!)

I play destro and I'm 100% ok with pug vs pug cities. I enjoy pug vs pug cities. Your narrative is again false, and you are just pushing your agenda while being intellectual disingenuous to the actual arguments being made.

You didn't learn anything. You simply push and push your own agenda while your own bias oozes out of your fingers like a petulant miasma. The issue is not your idea of pug vs pug cities, but your terrible attempts at communicating your idea without sounding like a whiny entitled brat.

To respond to your actual points with the reality:

1. No, Destro just wants any cities to happen at all. Right now cities barely pop and when they do it's the middle of the night for NA, and the morning for EU, when barely anyone is playing. If pug cities get us more cities, Destro would be happy.
2. All classes should be balanced for city play, but they aren't. That's a reality, and how the game currently works. This is not Destro's fault, and if you have issues with class balance there is a balance suggestion forum and you can make your claims heard to the community and the devs.
3. It is lazy to not even attempt to join a group for the end-game content of an MMO. How well do 1 man raids go in World of Warcraft? That being said, I'm ok with that laziness, but acting like laziness is not laziness is a joke at best.
4. Most people welcome challenge and want to see more of it. I much prefer good fights, close cities where we have intense fights, then one sided stomps, which are boring as all holy hell (regardless of if you are being stomped or stomping), and I haven't met a single destro or order player yet who doesn't agree with this.

Sorry, but just no. This whole Order player versus Destro player narrative is such a meme joke, so many players play both sides, they are the same god damn players. There are no destro or order lead conspiracies trying to "screw over" the other side for "ez wins", we all want to play a fun, healthy game, where we have a good time in PvP combat. Come on with this blatant biased nonsensical conspiracy theory garbage. I'm so sick of hearing Destro players whine about dev Order bias and listening to Order players whine about the devs Destro bias. You guys are in a delusional group think loop, and that goes for all players on all sides who think there are this massive conspiracies to screw over the other side. If any side screws over the other side the game dies bros.

Foofmonger wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 10:19 pm 1. No, Destro just wants any cities to happen at all. Right now cities barely pop and when they do it's the middle of the night for NA, and the morning for EU, when barely anyone is playing. If pug cities get us more cities, Destro would be happy.
2. All classes should be balanced for city play, but they aren't. That's a reality, and how the game currently works. This is not Destro's fault, and if you have issues with class balance there is a balance suggestion forum and you can make your claims heard to the community and the devs.
3. It is lazy to not even attempt to join a group for the end-game content of an MMO. How well do 1 man raids go in World of Warcraft? That being said, I'm ok with that laziness, but acting like laziness is not laziness is a joke at best.
4. Most people welcome challenge and want to see more of it. I much prefer good fights, close cities where we have intense fights, then one sided stomps, which are boring as all holy hell (regardless of if you are being stomped or stomping), and I haven't met a single destro or order player yet who doesn't agree with this.

1. Destro wants more cities to happen because destro meleeball is flat out stronger, especially since Order has few viable tanks, healers, or melee. No, ASW and WH do not count as viable melees in warband play.
2. It becomes Destro's fault when they want to push an uneven playing ground so they can have easy, free gear farm.
3. This is true, however it must be noted that "get a group" is a non-argument on Order in most cases, because the players most suffering are those who are not welcome in groups, or who are a last resort invite since their class sucks.
4. This is just flat out wrong and goes against all known examples of human (and animal) behavior. If someone can have their cake and eat it too, they are going to choose to do so, almost every time.

Lastly, it is absolutely a Destro vs Order thing. Some players do both factions, sure, but you can be damn sure that they main as destro because destro is easier and stronger and has better groups than order. The ONLY reason most destro mains that I know of even have order characters is because they get sick of waiting around in their city for a scenario or city queue, or they're tired of capturing empty keeps because no one wants to fight against an incredibly unbalanced premade of Destro meleeballs.

Mystry wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 10:25 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 10:19 pm 1. No, Destro just wants any cities to happen at all. Right now cities barely pop and when they do it's the middle of the night for NA, and the morning for EU, when barely anyone is playing. If pug cities get us more cities, Destro would be happy.
2. All classes should be balanced for city play, but they aren't. That's a reality, and how the game currently works. This is not Destro's fault, and if you have issues with class balance there is a balance suggestion forum and you can make your claims heard to the community and the devs.
3. It is lazy to not even attempt to join a group for the end-game content of an MMO. How well do 1 man raids go in World of Warcraft? That being said, I'm ok with that laziness, but acting like laziness is not laziness is a joke at best.
4. Most people welcome challenge and want to see more of it. I much prefer good fights, close cities where we have intense fights, then one sided stomps, which are boring as all holy hell (regardless of if you are being stomped or stomping), and I haven't met a single destro or order player yet who doesn't agree with this.

1. Destro wants more cities to happen because destro meleeball is flat out stronger, especially since Order has few viable tanks, healers, or melee. No, ASW and WH do not count as viable melees in warband play.
2. It becomes Destro's fault when they want to push an uneven playing ground so they can have easy, free gear farm.
3. This is true, however it must be noted that "get a group" is a non-argument on Order in most cases, because the players most suffering are those who are not welcome in groups, or who are a last resort invite since their class sucks.
4. This is just flat out wrong and goes against all known examples of human (and animal) behavior. If someone can have their cake and eat it too, they are going to choose to do so, almost every time.

Lastly, it is absolutely a Destro vs Order thing. Some players do both factions, sure, but you can be damn sure that they main as destro because destro is easier and stronger and has better groups than order. The ONLY reason most destro mains that I know of even have order characters is because they get sick of waiting around in their city for a scenario or city queue, or they're tired of capturing empty keeps because no one wants to fight against an incredibly unbalanced premade of Destro meleeballs.

You are one of the biased people I don't take seriously, sorry, but no.

Classes should be balanced, Order vs Destro should be balanced as a whole. If it isn't, it's not the Destro players who are screwing you, it's the devs. But honestly, your narrative is false. Order is quite strong if you min/max and can easily win cities. Yes, as discussed, it requires them to exclude a bunch of classes. That's why we should all be trying to get classes like ASW and WH buffed to be viable melees in warband play.

I am a destro player. I do not play Order. I want Order to be balanced. I want ASWs and WHs to be viable.

Stop telling me I am a liar, or that I have hidden motivations to screw you over. I do not. I agree that broken things should be fixed and made viable, and I'm right there with you.

There is no conspiracy. Start making more balance proposals and get the devs to listen to you instead of getting mad at people who are playing the game. But seriously though, if you can't objectively read your own post and see how much bias is oozing out of your consciousness, that's on you and not anyone else.

For context, I recently (as a destro player) posted on the GTDC nerf thread that a potential option could be to give a similar ability to GTDC to ASWs. Does that sound like someone who wants to "screw you" for "ez wins"?

Maybe it would be better for this community if we stop pointing fingers at each other and calling each other names and yelling, and talk about how we can balance the game in such a way that it would mean that all classes are viable, have good specs, and everyone can have fun and fair fights that lead to a healthy metagame? That's what I'm talking about when I talk about this bias, these unhealthy narratives, and this frankly delusional group think that is going on. I'm sure there are a few crappy people here and there, that's how variables work when you get to large groups of people, but I think as a community we can do a little better here. If either Destro or Order become too imbalanced in either direction, the population of this game will move on and this server will die. I do not want this, do you?

Destro does not easy wins. We just want to actually get in cities. Last city 4 full 24 man WB did not get in, so probably not a single solo quer/6 man even got in.

We need ways to fix the order population balance and casual mindset. Having 20000 engineers because pLaY hOW yOu WaNt and end up not able to form any viable city WB due to lack of tanks is not destro's fault. Your solution to block out hundreds of destro from even getting into cities is a complete joke.

Order guilds are a complete mess right now. Some order discord pugs don't even know what a mic is. City is end game content in a group based mmo. It will never be solo que friendly. If you are not willing to play needed classes or be organized guild/discord pugs, you can enjoy your 1/1/1 royals + loot bags. Because that is still 100 times better than not getting into cities.

is foofmonger always this emotional?

checked his post history, yes he is

Remember its just a game and I love you

Given that one side, destro, more or less already have a premade que and that both forts and city is designen to not let everyone in, I think this is the perfect time to make city premade que only. You can only que with 6/12/18/24.

Alternatively, allow 1 complete solo que city instance (with reduced rewards) rest are premade only.

Nekkma wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 6:12 am Given that one side, destro, more or less already have a premade que and that both forts and city is designen to not let everyone in, I think this is the perfect time to make city premade que only. You can only que with 6/12/18/24.

Alternatively, allow 1 complete solo que city instance (with reduced rewards) rest are premade only.

If this isn't trolling then you have to consider the unwanted classes/specs would get barely any city invites. Now before anyone says "but X warband does take Y unwanted class", let me explain. Yeah, exceptional or well connected players of said classes can usually manage to sneak in 1-2 spots in a premade warband. But that still leaves a lot of people playing those classes without city at all since there is a finite number of spots. Why would you take more than 1-2 healing AM over Warrior Priests? Why more than 1 SW over a bunch of slayers? E.t.c, I think we all know the classes with city issues, it's been discussed to death and I don't need to mention them.

I agree with Foofmonger in this case, first and foremost the unwanted classes should be tuned a bit more for cities, at least in some of their specs. This isn't Destro or Order's fault. It's a work in progress, and when that happens, then maybe we can start talking about other stuff.

You do realise there are hundreds of destro not getting inside city with current system? The destro soloquers are often from weaker classes and low RR/gear making them unwanted. The thing you fear is already a reality. And while it is annoying to not get in, it is not the end of the world. And btw, ”unwanted classes” is from a try hard point of view. You can join as a 6man singel target melee train and be very helpfull to your team.

Note that this does not mean no further balancing.

Nekkma wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 6:31 am You do realise there are hundreds of destro not getting inside city with current system? The destro soloquers are often from weaker classes and low RR/gear making them unwanted. The thing you fear is already a reality. And while it is annoying to not get in, it is not the end of the world. And btw, ”unwanted classes” is from a try hard point of view. You can join as a 6man singel target melee train and be very helpfull to your team.

Note that this does not mean no further balancing.

I do realise that, but why should that problem also be extended to order side? Wouldn't it be better to make it better for destro instead? Also I agree that it's from a tryhard point of view but it does have some merit to it, some classes are simply much more wanted due to balance.

I do think your soloq with reduced rewards idea is decent, because technically that's what's already happening with most soloqueues.