zumos2 wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:09 pm
I sincerily hope you are not balancing based on solo ranked 6v6 ... A good order group has all the tools to make the AoE healdebuff rather irrelevant with RP Blessing of Grungni and the 15% extra healing from kotbs. Imo its an unwarrented nerf aimed just at solo ranked. Meanwhile it large scale, roaming and premade 6v6 specs are nerfed for no apparent reason.
ok so you mean you need already 2 classes fixed in a sc and they need to run both what is needed to change that skill to just a 15% heal debuff?
zumos2 wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:09 pm
I sincerily hope you are not balancing based on solo ranked 6v6 ... A good order group has all the tools to make the AoE healdebuff rather irrelevant with RP Blessing of Grungni and the 15% extra healing from kotbs. Imo its an unwarrented nerf aimed just at solo ranked. Meanwhile it large scale, roaming and premade 6v6 specs are nerfed for no apparent reason.
Balance questions are raised in all sorts of formats. 6v6 is not some holy ground to be left untouched. Once might consider the 1v1 formats that WL is strong in to be a point of balance as well, which we've addressed as well. General rules to how we engage in balance have exceptions, and some abilities, or classes, or specs can be exception in specific engagements. How much credence we give to any balance consideration is typically brought into a debate. Either it's appropriate, or not. In the latter, we usually come up with several options to adjust and ideally start with the least amount of shift needed to make the intended change.
This tactic is a 100% chance to apply a 9s 50% healdebuff on-crit. If that's not a pretty amazing tactic on it's own, I'm not sure what is. The intention was to scale back its ability to proc on AOE due in part to the lifting of the AOE cap to 24 targets, combined with the 50' frontal cone from Essence Lash and the potential 150' range on a 30' AOE with Devour Essence. Crits from either of those proccing a 9s 50% healdebuff potentially hitting an entire warband worth of players is incredibly powerful and deserved to be scaled back.
Its not 100%, only on crit bit dif or tooltip is wrong
Reading the first 6 words only gets you so far.
Re: DPS DOK NERF
Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:45 pm
by Arbich
When its about warband balance, why you didnt change the Runepriest tactic also?
Re: DPS DOK NERF
Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:49 pm
by wargrimnir
Arbich wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:45 pm
When its about warband balance, why you didnt change the Runepriest tactic also?
Good point. It has the same effect, it should get the same treatment
Balance questions are raised in all sorts of formats. 6v6 is not some holy ground to be left untouched. Once might consider the 1v1 formats that WL is strong in to be a point of balance as well, which we've addressed as well. General rules to how we engage in balance have exceptions, and some abilities, or classes, or specs can be exception in specific engagements. How much credence we give to any balance consideration is typically brought into a debate. Either it's appropriate, or not. In the latter, we usually come up with several options to adjust and ideally start with the least amount of shift needed to make the intended change.
This tactic is a 100% chance to apply a 9s 50% healdebuff on-crit. If that's not a pretty amazing tactic on it's own, I'm not sure what is. The intention was to scale back its ability to proc on AOE due in part to the lifting of the AOE cap to 24 targets, combined with the 50' frontal cone from Essence Lash and the potential 150' range on a 30' AOE with Devour Essence. Crits from either of those proccing a 9s 50% healdebuff potentially hitting an entire warband worth of players is incredibly powerful and deserved to be scaled back.
Its not 100%, only on crit bit dif or tooltip is wrong
Reading the first 6 words only gets you so far.
It's never been a 9 seconds heal debuff
Re: DPS DOK NERF
Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:38 pm
by wargrimnir
criollo wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:19 pm
It's never been a 9 seconds heal debuff
Anything else to add there? You almost made a constructive point.
This was actually going to go in next week. If we pushed the DB without the code, it would have been not working at all, and Natherul needed to push some unrelated DB fixes.
We're evaluating to see if this is enough to resolve the balance issues with DoKs in 6v6, and if it's not, we'll make further adjustments.
So far, I think it is. Maybe a bit too harsh, we'll re-evaluate.
I sincerily hope you are not balancing based on solo ranked 6v6 ... A good order group has all the tools to make the AoE healdebuff rather irrelevant with RP Blessing of Grungni and the 15% extra healing from kotbs. Imo its an unwarrented nerf aimed just at solo ranked. Meanwhile it large scale, roaming and premade 6v6 specs are nerfed for no apparent reason.
Balance questions are raised in all sorts of formats. 6v6 is not some holy ground to be left untouched. Once might consider the 1v1 formats that WL is strong in to be a point of balance as well, which we've addressed as well. General rules to how we engage in balance have exceptions, and some abilities, or classes, or specs can be exception in specific engagements. How much credence we give to any balance consideration is typically brought into a debate. Either it's appropriate, or not. In the latter, we usually come up with several options to adjust and ideally start with the least amount of shift needed to make the intended change.
This tactic is a 100% chance to apply a 9s 50% healdebuff on-crit. If that's not a pretty amazing tactic on it's own, I'm not sure what is. The intention was to scale back its ability to proc on AOE due in part to the lifting of the AOE cap to 24 targets, combined with the 50' frontal cone from Essence Lash and the potential 150' range on a 30' AOE with Devour Essence. Crits from either of those proccing a 9s 50% healdebuff potentially hitting an entire warband worth of players is incredibly powerful and deserved to be scaled back.
You're only digging yourself into a deeper hole here. Really balancing for 1 v 1?? You do know this game was never and thus isn't balanced for 1 v 1 at all. Not in the least because it has a rock/paper/scissors structure which makes it impossible to balance 1 v 1 anyway. I really don't understand where this is suddenly coming from. You have to balance the game based around the top group setups, whether that is for small scale or large scale. If classes do not belong in either top tier group/warband, they probably need a buff, if they are overperforming in one or either, they might need a nerf depending on the order/destruction balance (example would be BW "overperforming" in large scale on order, but without the strength of the BW, Order would be completely destroyed in terms of Order/Destro balance).
And then you are saying I want 6v6 to be untouched? I don't know how you read that in my post. I basically said making a balance change based on pugs (which 6v6 ranked is) is bad idea, both for small and large scale. You have to balance around properly setup groups or you can just give up balancing all together.
Then onto the actual change and your argumentation. I mean I could leave it at the fact that it is 5 seconds and not 9. Arguing for a change without properly reading the tactic but w/e. The most amazing part is that you are actually arguing it is OP in warband play, when no top tier guild even considers running a dps DoK in their warband setup.
Re: DPS DOK NERF
Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:47 pm
by Lischang
DPS dok in top tier warband play - what planet are you guys on
zumos2 wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:09 pm
I sincerily hope you are not balancing based on solo ranked 6v6 ... A good order group has all the tools to make the AoE healdebuff rather irrelevant with RP Blessing of Grungni and the 15% extra healing from kotbs. Imo its an unwarrented nerf aimed just at solo ranked. Meanwhile it large scale, roaming and premade 6v6 specs are nerfed for no apparent reason.
ok so you mean you need already 2 classes fixed in a sc and they need to run both what is needed to change that skill to just a 15% heal debuff?
Any even remotely competetive group runs a Kotbs and RP with those two tactics for both small and large scale. And obviously not to counter that, but because its the best thing to run. So with well setup groups, the possible AoE heal debuff of DoK isn't overpowered.
