Return of Reckoning

i think that speak about defendable or undefendable is important in the measure of what is def or undef.
Give a possibility to have an undefendable casting direct dmg, will balance 3
important aspect: casting time from 2 to 3 sec; AP use; must be stationary.
any ranged class that needed to be stationary, that have a 3 sec cast time on ability , nd consume a large amount of AP ( due to the possible dmg) it's deadly nd weak at the same time.

other ranged classes or other tree spec that grant at the caster more "mobility" dont require to have the undefendable bonus. This argument will extend and apply on ability and tacts.

Morale take a separate part of this discussion, cos it's are morale and work in different kind.

IMHO

Atropik wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:41 pm As long as their damage can be ignored, i actually cant.

OK, then let's explore the counterplay to both, not including the fact that every sorc has access to Ice Spikes (and those running in wb would absolutely use the tactic to make it undefendable), but only a low % of knights run All Out Assault given their other useful auras.

All Out Assault counterplay (besides healing)
- Move out of range of 30ft
- Kill the knight
- Punt the knight

Ice Spikes counterplay (besides healing)
- HtL (negated with undefendable tactic)
- Cleanse (illogical, per you)
- Move away (it's a dot)
- Punt the sorc (it's a dot)
- Kill the sorc (it's a dot)

All Out Assault perks/downsides
+ Boosts damage numbers
- Losing toughness or resist defensive aura, outgoing heal debuff aura, etc.
- Only hits close targets, i.e. mostly mdps/tanks

Ice Spikes perks/downsides
+ Spammable, instant cast
+ AOE, 65ft range, so it can hit squishier targets in the backline, like BWs, SWs, healers
+ Reliable damage with tactic slotted
- Requires tactic slot for undefendable mechanic

Let me know if I missed anything.

dansari wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:59 pm Let me know if I missed anything.

You all the time correct. But who cares if it hits for 100-200.

I can log on healer, ask guildies to log on sorcs, wait for 5 IS will set on me, and keep smoking/drinking coffee overhealing x5 with 1 button, i guess even having x10 stacks is not a fatal wound, the same time x10 infernal Waves/Razes gonna end me pretty fast.

How many words should i put down more to insure you Weak Undefendable IS and Undefendable Aoe Nukes like Raze are very different things with very different impact in orvr. Should i make a video about that?

I would still like to point out that I included my Enemy addon damage statistics from last December in OP. With recorded 135000 IS hits, the average dmg was at 186, noncrits lesser average and crits slightly higher average, but that's what you can expect in general, closer to 150 on harder targets on average and possibly between 200-250 on softer targets, depending on Resistances and mitigation.

Lets assume that currently, half of the IS fluff dmg vanishes into the Dark Abyss of Disrupts. Half still somehow hits home (in reality probably less hits home because initial Check - DoT check...).
Assume that Sorc is competent and pumps maybe 4000 damage per second out. (15-25% less than what a competent BW is capable of due to differences in AoE designs) Per my collected Enemy addon dmg statistics, IS fills about 12%, or 1/8 or aoe spec playing Sorc dmg output. So of that 4000 DPS, about 500 comes from IS. (yes,more assumptions for more theorcrafting)
Now as our assumption, somehow IS is able to avoid vanishing into Fluff Regions of Dark Abyss of Disrupts, so it all hits home. Where previously 500 of it hit home, now 1000 does.
Sorc damage per second output would in theory rises from 4000 to 4500.
Which is still below what a competent BW is capable of dpsing in right hands.


200 dot ticks hitting both on healer and tanks without being disrupted? You really consider it too OP for Destro to be able to leash out undefendable fluff dmg? Or is it because with these changes Sorc AoE damage per second output start getting closer to BW levels of damage per second outputs? (again assuming that you are comparing a competent Sorc DPS vs a competent BW DPS with both playing in proper parties and not pug environment)

IS is the fluffiest of Sorc dmg, 1/8 of the general AoE output, its the other 7/8 that is burstier, more direct dmg that actually causes the kill to happen.

However, my numbers may not be 100% accurate and any conclusions drawn from those are always in realm of assumptions and theorycrafting, I hope maybe we see other Sorcs sharing their DMG statistics so we can compare numbers of how much their IS hits on average.

Atropik wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:18 pm How many words should i put down more to insure you Weak Undefendable IS and Undefendable Aoe Nukes like Raze are very different things with very different impact in orvr. Should i make a video about that?

Of course the two function differently, but their similarities are their range and their undefendable mechanic with this proposed change. IS is also an instant cast whereas Raze can be interrupted. My original point is that if you take ~5 sorcs (let's increase it and say you have 8 sorcs) and apply IS to 2/3 of the enemy warband, 2/3 of the warband is taking 1200 damage every 3 seconds (a conservative estimate of 150 * 8). 2/3 of the enemy warband taking Outrider Patrol damage every 3s is not "weak" - on top of the fact that you'll take 1200 damage per 3s for another ~12s after first tick, letting the sorcs move on to other aoe abilities (which is argued to be the "burstier" abilities). So now you're basically layering morale damage pressure per 3s on top of aoe spike damage. Tanks can't react with HtL, dps can't move away from dot damage, and your specced renown or willpower defenses do nothing. This does not present for balanced gameplay.

To me, Option E is the most suitable solution.

I'm yet again repeating myself, but I think it needs to be said.

Aoe Sorc is in no need for an extra dps gain in any sort or form, be it GC tactic or whatever - it's already in a good spot with supreme range, baseline Infernal Wave and nice pick of M2-M4 morals, even without drawing comparison with BW.
Not sure what's more to be said here, you can go and read my first post in this thread for a bit more detail, i.e. closer range and more damage vs longer range and slightly less, but easier to put out damage.

So I'm pretty baffled that this discussion takes place regardless.
Unless you have something to propose in regards to Dot or ST Sorc, in which case I'm all for buffs to those tree/specs - this whole thread is void of value and seems to be aimed at being prolonged enough with pointless discussions in hopes to be seen as clever in its whine to buff Aoe Sorc, given that my points in it weren't even addressed.

dansari wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:18 pm

Atropik wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:18 pm How many words should i put down more to insure you Weak Undefendable IS and Undefendable Aoe Nukes like Raze are very different things with very different impact in orvr. Should i make a video about that?

Of course the two function differently, but their similarities are their range and their undefendable mechanic with this proposed change. IS is also an instant cast whereas Raze can be interrupted. My original point is that if you take ~5 sorcs (let's increase it and say you have 8 sorcs) and apply IS to 2/3 of the enemy warband, 2/3 of the warband is taking 1200 damage every 3 seconds (a conservative estimate of 150 * 8). 2/3 of the enemy warband taking Outrider Patrol damage every 3s is not "weak" - on top of the fact that you'll take 1200 damage per 3s for another ~12s after first tick, letting the sorcs move on to other aoe abilities (which is argued to be the "burstier" abilities). So now you're basically layering morale damage pressure per 3s on top of aoe spike damage. Tanks can't react with HtL, dps can't move away from dot damage, and your specced renown or willpower defenses do nothing. This does not present for balanced gameplay.

And assuming competent gameplay, the enemy WB will still have their HTL up, blocking considerable amounts of the other arriving damage. And they will have some cleansing done, they will have HoTs with any 1 HoT tick negating about 2-3 IS DoT ticks and they will have group heals. Before last Octobers changes you had IS being spammed all over the places for those brutal 200 ticks, yet the dmg was flufftier and it was the other dmg that mostly did the killing.

Taking that 8 Sorcs, with the rest of the Sorc dmg being quite effectively countered by proper HTL formations, the Order WB would either let those Sorcs slowly spam their victims to death over 20-30 second from distance, or it would force an encounter and either force Order to attack to get to the Sorcs or have them retreat while spamming enough gheals to counter most of those DoT ticks.
However, 8 Sorcs is something no one runs because just how inefficient it becomes when properly countered, realistically 3-5 Sorcs per organized bombing warband, because you want other AoE classes like magus and mara as well.

Aurandilaz wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:13 pm However, 8 Sorcs is something no one runs because just how inefficient it becomes when properly countered, realistically 3-5 Sorcs per organized bombing warband, because you want other AoE classes like magus and mara as well.

Sure, but realistically you're also going to have adds who might also have sorcs who are also running the undefendable aoe dots.

Slayer is melee, not 65ft, and Rampage can be shattered. I don't disagree, but stay on topic. Cheers - Dan
E: ID?

Scrilian wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:42 pm I'm yet again repeating myself, but I think it needs to be said.

Aoe Sorc is in no need for an extra dps gain in any sort or form, be it GC tactic or whatever - it's already in a good spot with supreme range, baseline Infernal Wave and nice pick of M2-M4 morals, even without drawing comparison with BW.
Not sure what's more to be said here, you can go and read my first post in this thread for a bit more detail, i.e. closer range and more damage vs longer range and slightly less, but easier to put out damage.

So I'm pretty baffled that this discussion takes place regardless.
Unless you have something to propose in regards to Dot or ST Sorc, in which case I'm all for buffs to those tree/specs - this whole thread is void of value and seems to be aimed at being prolonged enough with pointless discussions in hopes to be seen as clever in its whine to buff Aoe Sorc, given that my points in it weren't even addressed.

What Supreme range? 65 feet IS DoT vs 40 feet FlameBreath direct dmg + Dot? (FlameBreath being 6 sec shorter and doing more dmg alltogether because Funnel Power (extra proc check for Flames of Rhuin) and Flashfire DoT proc check)
Or 65 feet base Infernal Wave, vs cast on move 80 feet FieryBlast? (with cross mirroring being between IW + IS +GloomOfNight vs FieryBlast + Detonate + FlameBreath somehow kinda mirroring each others functions)
Oh you could run tactic giving IW boost to 80 feet, its not needed and mostly helps you at pugfarming, but doesn't actually increase dmg or aid you otherwise, therefore not worth a mastery point, nor tactic slot.

SK vs FBB, both 80 feet, with FBB being on shorter CD and thus more often in rotation.
DC vs Anni, both 30 feet.
SP vs SE, both 30 feet. (again increase of radius from 30 to 40 feet just not worth tactic slot)

BW has option for 80 feet instacast Detonate, 80 feet instacast SpreadingFlames, Sorc could get GloomOfNight requiring standing still for 2 sec... rather skip mid tree and get ImpendingDoom for faster DarkMagic building.

And then both have access to 80 feet PoS/RoF (keep moving, shoot one tick or stay still to launch 2 ticks)

Both classes are perfectly viably for ranged bombing, with Sorc getting that 25 feet extra on IS compared to FlameBreath, with FlameBreath providing extra bomb juice from both FP+WF and giving double proc chance for FoR.

I can concede that 65ft IW is easier to use, but honestly its not that hard to fire a 80ft FieryBlast on the move with 1.5 sec cast time because as result you have higher base dmg + FP + WF - that effort of picking low disrupt target and then firing a far harder hitting ability than IW over longer distance is worth it.(it's even more lethal than 200 stronk IS dot ticks)

Your claim that BW is somehow losing to Sorc when it comes to ranged bombing is just not true, especially since you chose to forgot they have a spec for 100feet ranged moral bomb. Then again you play mostly Orderside, so I cannot expect you to have taken too often triple or quadruple BurningHeads and wondering how you exploded in 1 sec with no enemies nearby.

MAYBE, with ChillingGusts actually making IS into something that is considered a threat, Sorc may start catching BW in damage outputs. Currently with Sorc being far weaker at closer range bombing than BW, and still losing even in the ranged bombing comparison assuming the BW knows how to play.