THETA and META

[peterthepan3]

I think Druin's point was that, while racial pairings/racial synergies could be a cool thing, and there is definitely evidence leaning towards the idea that original WAR devs did hope to incorporate racial groups in some guise, it doesn't really change the gameplay that much from what it is now, i.e. build morale, dump, rinse-repeat.

It gives you the option to go beyond morale bombing thanks to absorb bubbles, morale drains, AP drains+regens, CD increase/decrease, mass debuffs, area denial gameplay and melee skill bombing.. Racial simply gives more options to build around.
Sure, game post 1.3.6 moved towards unified gameplay that culminated with AM/SHM mechanic changes in 1.4.* and one can utilize that as well but you'll end up with repeated and/or missing utilities and less burst across the board. And there are ways to counter morale bombing that are not limited to morale drains.
Sure, racial gameplay requires more coordination from warband and target focusing. But that's easy with VoIP + /assist macro

...but all of the things you mentioned can already be done interracially (lul). Want CD increased? Bring a bo. Also want morale drain? Bring a marauder. What's that, you want armor increase? Bring a BG or Zealot, etc.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here btw. I'm not sure the idea of yet MORE coordination (!!!) being required will go down too well here; people struggle to form groups, let alone all of the prerequisites for making racial groups work (hence footpatrols struggles to get people trying it out).

[footpatrol2]

Your ignoring a epic amount content by just breaking the morale system to build morale, dump, rinse repeat.

Same can be said about 6 man meta. Hit your assist button, push buttons, rinse repeat.

[Druin]

I never said the current state of balance was great and I agree that every class should have builds, which makes them able to compete in a 6 man and a warband environment. I'm sure we'll find ways so some classes are not completely useless in both, but there will always be overperforming ones.

I also don't dislike the idea of racial groups being able to compete with mixed ones. I do dislike the idea of aiming for making them the only desiarble thing (footpatrol mentioned before to lock each race into their respective zones up to a city siege), and especially the focus on fast morale gains.

[NSKaneda]

...but all of the things you mentioned can already be done interracially (lul). Want CD increased? Bring a bo. Also want morale drain? Bring a marauder. What's that, you want armor increase? Bring a BG or Zealot, etc.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here btw. I'm not sure the idea of yet MORE coordination (!!!) being required will go down too well here; people struggle to form groups, let alone all of the prerequisites for making racial groups work (hence footpatrols struggles to get people trying it out).

I know it can, after all WAR moved away from racial grouping Yet synergy remains. BO with his IB buffs + SHM with aoe debuffs and AP battery for Choppaz + SHs range caster shut-downs AND CQ debuffs can make a force to be reckoned with. Kiting-friendly too. And in mixed groups you loose dmg type converters/buffs that work with all classes in the mix.

Chosen+Magus for mass aoe spirit dmg anyone? Add Mara to the mix for front-line pressure+debuffs and Zeals for grp buffs, APs and debuffs and you have a racial steam-roller.

Slow-moving but tough as nails Dwarf groups with elemental dmg reduction and increased dmg when under magic attacks (that's why they melt against Chaos but are strong against Druuchi and Green..)

BG+dps DoK (bursty self heal for BG and much-needed stat buffs for DoK). Add Sorc and WE for utility and you can focus-burst anyone while withstanding bombing at the same time. And you can change the setup for range with simple tactics change in 6man OR have 1 melee, 1 range and 2 pressure grps in a warband..


How much coordination you need for calling assist on target, marking leader with enemy marker and calling for pressure dmg conversion / front line debuff?
I know that RoR is relaxed in warfare ways and one coordinated warband can make opposition log out in rage. But come on, for veterans of KN this is warband play 101..

[Aurandilaz]

Let's come at the issue from Druchii pov (I got all rank 40 DoK, BG, WE, Sorc)
They lack resistances, which they would have if they had skilled DOKs rotating M4 with its original duration. So they decide they need instead Chosen for resistances.
Sorc has inferior damage output compared to BW. However, Sorc would be able to deal with this, by having moral pump tactic slotted and the DoK pumping moral with Restore Essence (which is now a DoK heal ability they really do not want to use when you look at cost-effect compared to any other heal). Sorc COULD get then M4 damage in 20-30 seconds, whereas BW as of now without moral tactic gets M2 in 20 seconds, or with tactic in below 10 seconds. Currently Sorc players realize that moral tactic aint worth shaite because average fights last 10-20 seconds, and Sorc M4 might be up after 120 seconds.
Then Sorc gets more potent covenant damage from DoK (before proc meta nerf), this compensates for BW having massive damage increase from Wildifre and Funnel Power, which were also kept balanced when Sorc had better proc potential than BW (before BW gained them as well).
Maybe at this point you think "damn, Sorc now strong" until you realize BW still had 3 sec Flashfire, massive Rain of Fire proccing Funnel Power + Wildfire and easy fast M2 for big damage.

Or better, you could have run a support Sorc in party, that runs Infernal Gift, proc goodies and provides Tapping the Dark, allowing Witch Elf and BG to start showing up some performance boost in WB play (WE running their own absorb bubble + Sorc absorb so they have some cushioning considering their light armour gear), and even better, runs ST Spirit debuff from Chillwind, which would enhance the original WE Witchbrew that used to do spirit damage. (not forgetting all the spirit damage dealing DoK covenant procs)


But how do Dark Elves play in warband environment these days? Ridiculously bad.
Sorc AoE is brought to WB for basic AoE pressure and feels sad on the inside whenever the rest of the WB does a moral drop because it doesn't have solid M2 worth dropping. DoK is brought for group healing spam and cleansebot.
WE is told to go make a balance proposal that might make them less than useless for WB time after time, Blackguard player is told to reroll because the tank is still subpar in largescale compared to BO and Chosen and provides close to no group utility, not forgetting lack of moral pump tactic, dps DOK is laughed off.

[NSKaneda]

Let's come at the issue from Druchii pov (I got all rank 40 DoK, BG, WE, Sorc)
They lack resistances, which they would have if they had skilled DOKs rotating M4 with its original duration. So they decide they need instead Chosen for resistances.

Sure, for mixed wb you'd take chosen simply because it'd give you 1 extra tactic slot.
Yet you get armour buffs across the board* + racial resists tactic (making up for no grp resist buff other races enjoy) + Sorc shroud of darkness = same resists as other races but have to be applied individually (IMO it's a trade off for covenants and burstiness ).

I'd love to run pure Druuchi wb to test out few synergy ideas since I've been playing Dark Elves exclusively for the past month or so..

-
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* 1 DoK running CoV for group self-heals on aoe dmg and burst heal on channeled, other CoT and rotating CoC when it comes to snaring before firing up AOE)

[Theseus]

Let's come at the issue from Druchii pov (I got all rank 40 DoK, BG, WE, Sorc)
They lack resistances, which they would have if they had skilled DOKs rotating M4 with its original duration. So they decide they need instead Chosen for resistances.
Sorc has inferior damage output compared to BW. However, Sorc would be able to deal with this, by having moral pump tactic slotted and the DoK pumping moral with Restore Essence (which is now a DoK heal ability they really do not want to use when you look at cost-effect compared to any other heal). Sorc COULD get then M4 damage in 20-30 seconds, whereas BW as of now without moral tactic gets M2 in 20 seconds, or with tactic in below 10 seconds. Currently Sorc players realize that moral tactic aint worth shaite because average fights last 10-20 seconds, and Sorc M4 might be up after 120 seconds.
Then Sorc gets more potent covenant damage from DoK (before proc meta nerf), this compensates for BW having massive damage increase from Wildifre and Funnel Power, which were also kept balanced when Sorc had better proc potential than BW (before BW gained them as well).
Maybe at this point you think "damn, Sorc now strong" until you realize BW still had 3 sec Flashfire, massive Rain of Fire proccing Funnel Power + Wildfire and easy fast M2 for big damage.

Or better, you could have run a support Sorc in party, that runs Infernal Gift, proc goodies and provides Tapping the Dark, allowing Witch Elf and BG to start showing up some performance boost in WB play (WE running their own absorb bubble + Sorc absorb so they have some cushioning considering their light armour gear), and even better, runs ST Spirit debuff from Chillwind, which would enhance the original WE Witchbrew that used to do spirit damage. (not forgetting all the spirit damage dealing DoK covenant procs)


But how do Dark Elves play in warband environment these days? Ridiculously bad.
Sorc AoE is brought to WB for basic AoE pressure and feels sad on the inside whenever the rest of the WB does a moral drop because it doesn't have solid M2 worth dropping. DoK is brought for group healing spam and cleansebot.
WE is told to go make a balance proposal that might make them less than useless for WB time after time, Blackguard player is told to reroll because the tank is still subpar in largescale compared to BO and Chosen and provides close to no group utility, not forgetting lack of moral pump tactic, dps DOK is laughed off.

Hm, I do see it the same way mostly, but I dont agree on the BG. If you play an offensive BG you can get a niche place for crit increase, so you often get a spot there.

[ragafury]

2hd BG is bad as soon as you get outnumbered.
Also useless in funnel breaking.

It's a win-more tool, mostly for open field fights. You don't need a win more tool if you already winning.

A class is good if it performs in multiple situations. You already said in your comment "niche".

If EHP would go up and debuffing for pure dps purposes had a place I would comment surely more positively about 2h BG.

At the current state of the game = bring a snbBO or a marauder, depending on the spot you want to fill.

[Bozzax]

May I point dark elves didn’t even have tank and greenskins lacked mdps meaning mix groups was the only way at release.

There is nothing wrong with running a pure grp if you want or role play but please just dont say it being what devs intended.

Unless you can provide us with a source ofc

[Wam]

I've lead wb's with

2 tanks only...

4 magus

4 sorc recently despite them not being what they was

even 4 healers in p4 recently too

We don't run pure meta, I know what classes i'd bring instead if we did

Also M2 bomb is nice for fighting bigger numbers (that we usually do)... but we have killed every wb without using morale at some point or another, and sometimes fast if we get a good engage

Class and balancing setup is somewhat important... and I have my own preferences, almost any class can work if you are good enough / build around in WB but there are some I throw to the back of the line

Discipline, following, trust, belief, movement, positional awareness, positivity, and basic understanding of gameplay of class/role is just as important as what class you bring...