Return of Reckoning

Let's not fool ourselves: If you use SP/SE it is because it is a AoE attack and your other AoE attacks/morales are on CD. You don't use them because "i need to be careful with backlash".

Well my 5 cent is that Sorc/BW is one of the squishiest classes around and having a blacklash hit for 750 damage at 100 mechanic does make an impact in wb fighting under pressure.

To state the obvious is that the mechanic itself prevents the class to run around solo, the class needs to be babysat.

Having some stats debuff will just make people abandon the class and there will be SH/SW everywhere.

So my idea is to make Dhar wind/Meltdown give some kind of buff instead to make it worthwhile to use, I don't think anyone uses that ability unless you have less than 1 healer in a pug sc.

Penril wrote:You guys are missing the point. These classes gain insane bonuses for being at 100, and the drawback is a ridiculous backlash that can be healed with a HoT from any healer. Slayer/Choppa, on the other hand, receive nasty penalties for staying red all the time.

The idea is to make it dangerous to stay at 100 on a BW/Sorc (backlash is NOT dangerous). This can come with some buffs ofc; we also discussed internally the possibility of buffing Meltdown for example.

I would most likely compare bw/sorc with other ranged dps but not with choppa/sl. Choppa/sl are melee classes, they have aa, tons of debuffs (heal debuff, wounds, crit, parry, etc.), they can reach a decent amount of parry, they have selfheal, sprint, medium armor, snare breaker, tons of tools to survive. Sl/choppa can basicaly kill squishy enemy stayin green/yellow, red zone is a bonus dps on top of the other melee classes, its a heavy trade, but its still valuable, melee classes rely on their abilities,but not mechanic. I belive some tunning up of thier abilities can make them shine over Warhammer Online as it was in 1.3 patch times

On the other hand sorc/bw under 90 combustion have nothing, they can hardly deal even with mobs. Their mechanic was created as an overpovered and gamebreaking thing and after all patches and nerfs they have only their mechanic left on a board. Sorcs has zero points in mobility, zero in surviveability, zero in escape (except morales). Everything they have is THE ROTATION, easy predictable and conterable by anyone who plays more then a month, that makes gameplay as a sorc/bw boring as hell.

Sorc is mostly unplayable solo as it is now, its hardly playable duo with healer cause every 2 decent mdps with half a brain will most likely kill you both. You need a guard but even so, you still cant kill a single enemy healer, SH/SW fits that role much better. When things comes to 6 men group sorc is also meh, we can see bws there, but thats because bws have not to deal with The Mightly White Lion mostly. And then massive fights, that must be the plase where bw/sorc should shine but.... annigilate in 2k17? Even tank morale push sounds much better.

So lets compare sorc/bw to another rdps class, magus as an example, (we can compare to SH, but i belive only complitely mad guy would pick Sorc over SH to enter the rvr zone/scenario and show up some kills) for the most common skills Doom Bolt and Bolt of Change:
- Database tooltip says DB - 3 sec cast 533 corp dmg - 100ft range
- BoC - 3 sec cast 633 elem dmg - 150 ft range - undefendable
Next, Hand of ruin and Indigo Fire of change - 343 vs 387 damage + ap 120 drain on Ifoc.
We can compare the rotations and talk about Dot based abilities damage, and how exactly they fit their role, so everyone can see, the damage difference is not so insane. The same time magus has decent cc abilities and a hell ton of surviveability, sorc has nothing. Few words about "ridiculous drawback", every rotation costs you aroun 2k hp, and when sorc faces the wl pouncing on her with 1.5k armor debuff+ 2k Coordinated Strike non crit dmg, 2k hp is a serious trade.

Both classes need their abilities to be reformed, so they can perform well outside rotation and pug kb stealing. Especialy sorc needs her mastery trees to be completely reworked cause 70% of them are useless crap, but their mechanic is the only thing why they are still a bit playable, i belive offered penalties will kill the classes.

No, you use SP/SE because it is part of AoE rotation, just like WoP/BB is part of normal ST rotaton. And for that rotation to work, you have to manage your DM pool, which essentially means you are not all of the time at 100 DM despite some here claiming that to be the case.

And for backlash, maybe you just lack properly organized opposing warbands during NA hours, but during EU times when there is largscale organized RvR occuring, Backlash does matter, it's a constant source of dmg that eventually more often than you would believe, ends up killing the player. When things don't go as planned, and healers get in trouble and the BW/sorc is at the centre of the bomb, a few backlashes at the worst moments leading to fatal outcome are what gives a victory to the other side.

Aurandilaz wrote: a few backlashes at the worst moments leading to fatal outcome are what gives a victory to the other side.

Now I have seen it all.

Backlash is NOT a harsh enough drawback for such a strong mechanic. Don't bring this point up again.

Penril wrote:

Aurandilaz wrote: a few backlashes at the worst moments leading to fatal outcome are what gives a victory to the other side.

Now I have seen it all.

Backlash is NOT a harsh enough drawback for such a strong mechanic. Don't bring this point up again.

It doesn't matter in ST spec but it does if RNG **** you out of guard range in a wb. Play it, bomb with it. Perfect oppurtunity is with Fusion tomorrow.

I don't know about any big change to this mechanic. I played BW main for long time and when I read the forums it is often the same. Each person has a different opinion on the subject.
The class gains a large damage buff but this CANNOT be compared to ANY other classes, that would apples to oranges discussion.
Could backlash be experimented with ? Sure
Is backlash inconsequential? It certainly can be, and any situation where a caster is under fire from multiple targets (most realistic situations) he won't likely be able to maintain at 100% for too long, especially if he gets heal debuffed, wound debuffed, etc.
I was one of the players who advocated for Backlash to scale at higher rank, but in my opinion that case point is not really a 100% improvement but a side-step.

I would put a criteria for any change to not harm solo gameplay, and for caster that is already challenging (PvE or PvP).
To try and solo level (PvE) with greater backlash would be very hard to deal with, I think.
Honestly I beleive the mechanic currently requires some skill in order to play correctly. Sure any high skill player can simply unleash massive damage in very short amount of time. I would probably point a finger more towards specific builds if these classes are going to be considered too powerfull.

@OP, we can throw some suggestions if we're convinced that sorc/bw mechanic is problematic. could you point that what's the real problem ?

1-lack of counterplay ?

-you can counter sorc/bw damage if the target is guarded and healed
-you can counter sorc/bw damage if the target is cleansed properly
-you can counter sorc/bw damage if the target is under 3X HTL
-you can counter sorc/bw damage if the target using CW wisely
-you can counter sorc/bw damage if the target knows how to detaunt
-you can counter sorc/bw damage if the target knows how to break los.
-you can counter sorc/bw damage if the target knows cc sorc/bw if a rotation comes for him.

this is worse for sorc due to "burn through" and "flashfire" cause sorc doombolt rotation isn't undefendable like bw.

2-lack of punishment ?

-according my enemy combat statistic my %20-30 incoming damage comes from backslash. for st it's not a problem at all but as a aoe sorc/bw it's quite punishing under pressure. just imagine you have to use your aoe abilites every gcd to create pressure and backslash ticking very very often.


if you really look for a solution that forces sorc/bw not stay %100 mechanic all the time just make carreer mechanic 100+ and increase backslash damage/chance if 100+. AP suggestion is just a bait that will be covered with Zea/RP ap ritual.

Zanilos wrote:

Penril wrote:

Aurandilaz wrote: a few backlashes at the worst moments leading to fatal outcome are what gives a victory to the other side.

Now I have seen it all.

Backlash is NOT a harsh enough drawback for such a strong mechanic. Don't bring this point up again.

It doesn't matter in ST spec but it does if RNG **** you out of guard range in a wb. Play it, bomb with it. Perfect oppurtunity is with Fusion tomorrow.

Point is it is still a small price to pay for the buff the mechanic gives. The downside is way less than the upside. Don't pretend otherwise. BW/Sorc have been top dog throughout the entire lifetime of both WAR and ROR because of this.

Maybe during the weekend. I work while you play (timezone thing).