Return of Reckoning

looking back on my response in this thread back in 2017 i cant help but be amused at how strong and viable both these 2 specs have become

Torquemadra wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:58 pm

Panzerkasper wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:42 pm 2h Chosen died with the CS nerf and its following removal.
Chosen basically became an aura trash mob.

CS was repurposed to the point of the tree that it is in, that being "A mastery path focused on offense" and not a low hanging fruit that S&B chosens could run, lol and apply on people.

For reference Crippling Strikes places a 10% increased chance to be critically hit on the enemy player which stacks with other crit increasers, is apt for its tree and is more than powerful enough.

CS was a pretty important tool and one of the counters to orders crit stacking ability. Sure, SnB also could make use of it, but they were pretty bad at spreading it. To be reliable you had to go with OB+CS+RB wich were two tactic slots sacrificed+2h weapon, a huge commitment if you ask me. Even back on live were crit values were much easier to achieve it was not very reliable as a SnB tank, on RoR it became even harder.

Torquemadra wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:13 pm

Panzerkasper wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:50 pm

Torquemadra wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:58 pm

CS was repurposed to the point of the tree that it is in, that being "A mastery path focused on offense" and not a low hanging fruit that S&B chosens could run, lol and apply on people.

For reference Crippling Strikes places a 10% increased chance to be critically hit on the enemy player which stacks with other crit increasers, is apt for its tree and is more than powerful enough.

CS was a pretty important tool and one of the counters to orders crit stacking ability. Sure, SnB also could make use of it, but they were pretty bad at spreading it. To be reliable you had to go with OB+CS+RB wich were two tactic slots sacrificed+2h weapon, a huge commitment if you ask me. Even back on live were crit values were much easier to achieve it was not very reliable as a SnB tank, on RoR it became even harder.

So? Orders crit was reduced, you gained.

Again, it was an offensive tree tactic grabbed by S&B and was grossly out of place.

i think he's refering to the point that CS was the only way a 2h chosen could survive other than bring a suppor tool, It's probably impossible play it in Orvr in that way right know, yes there were some abuse with the stack of CS but the change basically mean Orvr is out of question for a 2h chosen, push into zerg with a 25% parry and no other with good updatedtime def stuff is not going to take you anywhere, bg can do a better job than chosen right know it is more reliable in 2h than ch, simply because it have is own tool plus chosen/bo dmg reduction stuff to survive in 2h mode (either res aura or save me hide). Basically 2h chosen is relegated to sc in a way of take or leave not necessary wrong but there was still more freedom of build/playstyle before.

p.s. i think problem with cs were due how dmg reduction stuff stack on ror , in live they were not perfect additive ,hence it never was a prob, tought it didnt aswell neither stack with challenge...probably if the stacking rules were not additive it woudl had been so much a problem imo

Torquemadra wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:36 am
How does a 2h knight function?

2H knight has 2 functions really

one was to let double knight parties split and carry multiple of KOTBS potent auras/tactics effects in a party at the same time

The second is AoE wounds debuff in orvr

Torquemadra wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:36 am

Tesq wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:18 am

Torquemadra wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:13 pm

So? Orders crit was reduced, you gained.

Again, it was an offensive tree tactic grabbed by S&B and was grossly out of place.

i think he's refering to the point that CS was the only way a 2h chosen could survive other than bring a suppor tool, It's probably impossible play it in Orvr in that way right know, yes there were some abuse with the stack of CS but the change basically mean Orvr is out of question for a 2h chosen, push into zerg with a 25% parry and no other with good updatedtime def stuff is not going to take you anywhere, bg can do a better job than chosen right know it is more reliable in 2h than ch, simply because it have is own tool plus chosen/bo dmg reduction stuff to survive in 2h mode (either res aura or save me hide). Basically 2h chosen is relegated to sc in a way of take or leave not necessary wrong but there was still more freedom of build/playstyle before.

p.s. i think problem with cs were due how dmg reduction stuff stack on ror , in live they where not perfect additive ,hence it never was a prob, tought it didnt neither stack with challenge...

How does a 2h knight function? strike through was nerfed, efficient swings is a joke, they also have less damage forward capacity of the Chosen DPS tree especially post changes where the chosens get to debuff with CS and relentless doing spiritual damage. Im not sure why you think you should be a deftard with a 2h but ignoring that and you have a massive amount of defense with suppression AND all the auras. This attempt to make out that chosen, be it with 2h or otherwise is junk is bad comedy.

in the case of 2hander ktbo was wound debuffs and stack damage shields combined with vigilance , deftard 2hander ktbo doesnt kill you fast, kill you slowly while taking slow dmg and u would be suprised u dont need to make them very offesnive when u can just slot runefang + m2 combo is kinda strong 1,2k aas on squishies isnt a joke

Torquemadra wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:36 am

Tesq wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:18 am

Torquemadra wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:13 pm

So? Orders crit was reduced, you gained.

Again, it was an offensive tree tactic grabbed by S&B and was grossly out of place.

i think he's refering to the point that CS was the only way a 2h chosen could survive other than bring a suppor tool, It's probably impossible play it in Orvr in that way right know, yes there were some abuse with the stack of CS but the change basically mean Orvr is out of question for a 2h chosen, push into zerg with a 25% parry and no other with good updatedtime def stuff is not going to take you anywhere, bg can do a better job than chosen right know it is more reliable in 2h than ch, simply because it have is own tool plus chosen/bo dmg reduction stuff to survive in 2h mode (either res aura or save me hide). Basically 2h chosen is relegated to sc in a way of take or leave not necessary wrong but there was still more freedom of build/playstyle before.

p.s. i think problem with cs were due how dmg reduction stuff stack on ror , in live they where not perfect additive ,hence it never was a prob, tought it didnt neither stack with challenge...

How does a 2h knight function? strike through was nerfed, efficient swings is a joke, they also have less damage forward capacity of the Chosen DPS tree especially post changes where the chosens get to debuff with CS and relentless doing spiritual damage. Im not sure why you think you should be a deftard with a 2h but ignoring that and you have a massive amount of defense with suppression AND all the auras. This attempt to make out that chosen, be it with 2h or otherwise is junk is bad comedy.

Hm sorry but i must say some things about knight before give you the reason about chosen 2h is good and very viable. Actually i am main KOTBS and must say that KOTBS 2h is better way than 2h chosen, the main job of a tank is guard, both have good mechanics, chosen can take 25% parry and KOTBS runefang mechanic that jumps with guarding damage. The problem with this mechanics are 2: 25% parry must hit and opponent, with the different mechanic from live in parry strikethrought thats not possibe always while runefang is passive gives +-10 parry only but gives ini too(so important in this server actually) and 240 str that is so usefull in terms of damage. In my opinition is better Runefang mechanic for guarding. On the other side bothe have good m2 for help them to mitigate damage, chosen 300%more healing vs Emperior Champion that is really op, 240 wounds(heals him) 240 thougnes(mitigation damage) 240 str(again a support damage). M2 stacks with runefang and cant be dispelled...
With Kotbs you can sacrifice some damage and Staggering Imppact( so usefull for the changes in this server 10% less defenses) to take Vigilance, a very nice defenssive CD. In terms of utility auras are very similar, more viability in chosen because chosen takes left and right tree and KOTBS is better with left and mid tree(Chosen improves resist aura and KOTBS thougnes aura...)Crit bonus for crippling strike has different mechanic than Encourage Aim, Encourage aim maybe is better because is up all the time to all targets in 30 feets but you must pick str aura always...(sometimes would be better other aura and use str potion...but now there are many melee trains....) both mechanics are good.
In terms of dps...actually KOTBS wins...if you are good warding runefang is 90% up +240 str +240 weapon skill, without ws talis or rr with runefang and liniment of weapon skill i cap 55% with presion strike is 80% armor penetration + the 960 proc from beastlord....(now guardian WL Build cant take armor debuff, need +70 rr) only IB, WL and SW debuff armor and not always are better debuffs (M1 demolishing is better too). M2kotbs with 2morale/sec in gear is 50% up and gives again 240 str...
its really that chosen have 15% more crit and do spirit damage...but unitarget Precision strike is the skill spaming (except Shining Blade always on CD, dispell some buffs or interrupt a skill) and with the base skill KOTBS can take easy 80% armorpenetration with so much str...always i am talking about a 2h tank...not a full dps spec. In terms of CC are similar.
AT the end, both are good...maybe KOTBS is more balanced in terms of TANKY-DPS, but i think too that if you want build a full dps Chosen is better and with the changes in crit snb build KOTBS... chosen is better bunker with snb too.

The utility of wounds debuff from 2H KOTBS is better too because in the order only 2hslayer can do it(unitarget not AOE), in destro more classes can do it.

2h is worst than s+b hold the line torque, a 2h tank need to have a reliable defensive font, auras dont provide defense enough (exept res aura) and are of course stuff that buff whole group, aka they are the base to even enter the lake not a def tool. In this scenario is like they are not existing because other tank benefith from em other that have their own def stuff (they are support) leaving chosen with only suppression (only parry, no doidge/disrupt) and 1 if you can afford it, mostly not, between oppression, or tzeench reflection. These are active tools, they can be removed, parryied and have a medium/high CD. BG 2h>>>>>>2h ch because it can go 65% magic dmg less so even if he stay in 2h he will always get less dmg and have a more relioable avoidance than a 2h chosen (5% parry less, and the buff can be parryed or removed). 2h Bg is totally better for Orvr than 2h chosen. See it as auras being a base for any tank in group which then you add their skills and tactics, count them as support not def tools.

kobs have "reliable" stuff like vigilange, runefang (it buff aswell def stats) and heal increase tactic( which is what was CS, both a def tool and support for the group)..... it is totally in an opposite league than chosen if he choose to go 2h, i sincerly dont know why chosen need to be that much offensive at all for orvr...... you are still a tank if you cannot survive/guard in front line then as i said that build is relegated to sc/gank and that's it.... take or leave nothing wrong about but is untrue that you can walking into zerg with out second thinking. Offensive stuff take place of support/CC not self defense stuff. Self defensive stuff are important for every tank or you will never be able to do your job dosent matter if 2h/s+b, more off/defense spec; tough in 2h the difference is more evident because no hold the line.
Kobs/bg can do good enought to not be a burden if propper geared.

if i had to rank up 2h tanks class durability inside a group 2h chosen would be at bottom togheter with 2h BO but Bo dont have aoe stuff so is not an Orvr oriented build, chosen does and used to even spec 2h for rvr.

Does CS work properly now then?

Last time i checked it increased chance to be crit by 10% and not with 10%.

For example if your chance to be crit was 5% then it increased it to 5,5% And if it was 50% it increased it to 55%. If it was 0 the tactic was just not doing anything.

Even at 10% flat it requires critstacking which means you kinda need to run two tactics for it, the usefullness is debateble but imo not worth it.

Torquemadra wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:36 am

Tesq wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:18 am

Torquemadra wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:13 pm

So? Orders crit was reduced, you gained.

Again, it was an offensive tree tactic grabbed by S&B and was grossly out of place.

i think he's refering to the point that CS was the only way a 2h chosen could survive other than bring a suppor tool, It's probably impossible play it in Orvr in that way right know, yes there were some abuse with the stack of CS but the change basically mean Orvr is out of question for a 2h chosen, push into zerg with a 25% parry and no other with good updatedtime def stuff is not going to take you anywhere, bg can do a better job than chosen right know it is more reliable in 2h than ch, simply because it have is own tool plus chosen/bo dmg reduction stuff to survive in 2h mode (either res aura or save me hide). Basically 2h chosen is relegated to sc in a way of take or leave not necessary wrong but there was still more freedom of build/playstyle before.

p.s. i think problem with cs were due how dmg reduction stuff stack on ror , in live they where not perfect additive ,hence it never was a prob, tought it didnt neither stack with challenge...

How does a 2h knight function? strike through was nerfed, efficient swings is a joke, they also have less damage forward capacity of the Chosen DPS tree especially post changes where the chosens get to debuff with CS and relentless doing spiritual damage. Im not sure why you think you should be a deftard with a 2h but ignoring that and you have a massive amount of defense with suppression AND all the auras. This attempt to make out that chosen, be it with 2h or otherwise is junk is bad comedy.

Sorry now you are right, KOTBS 2H is worse than Chosen =)