Return of Reckoning

No +1 - Penril.

Teefz wrote:Seeing as Blade of Ruin is completely useless and not even worth a spec point, it would make sense to try out some experimental changes involving Blade of Ruin being mirrored to Cave-In. By mirror, I mean that it should improve dmg with hate, it should require a great weapon and it should be a 3cd KD with no reactionary requirement. The issue with it being a 5 point skill could easily be solved by swapping Enraged Beating with Blade of Ruin. Swapping Enraged Beating wouldn't change much anyway and is one of those skills that should imho be reworked to an ability that affects the person you got Dark Protector on. Not necessarily mirrored to Ancestor's Fury, but the point being giving Black Guard more group utility.

I support this. As i said, mirror cave in on to blade of ruin completely. Not sure enraged beating needs to change though. Or rather, what would it do? Crimson Death already increases crit chance ala Ancestors Fury.

Agreed because it would be the easiest thing to do with minimal effort, would put the BG's KB potential on an equal footing with its counterpart, it doesn't really matter where the skills are in the Malice tree as you will ALWAYS spec CD if playing 2h and so the issue of it being relatively easy to get is null. Having its duration tied to hate will just exacerbate the BG's already meh situation when it comes to RELIABLE, ON-DEMAND CC (longass KB dependent on hate, AOE snare that is 20 sec CD compared to BO spammable), so it should be 3-seconds off the bat.

Yeah tying duration to hate is dumb. Just mirror cave win. Once BG has blade of ruwin, I will feel good making and playing one. I will lament their elfin lack of beard though

GodlessCrom wrote:

Teefz wrote:Seeing as Blade of Ruin is completely useless and not even worth a spec point, it would make sense to try out some experimental changes involving Blade of Ruin being mirrored to Cave-In. By mirror, I mean that it should improve dmg with hate, it should require a great weapon and it should be a 3cd KD with no reactionary requirement. The issue with it being a 5 point skill could easily be solved by swapping Enraged Beating with Blade of Ruin. Swapping Enraged Beating wouldn't change much anyway and is one of those skills that should imho be reworked to an ability that affects the person you got Dark Protector on. Not necessarily mirrored to Ancestor's Fury, but the point being giving Black Guard more group utility.

I support this. As i said, mirror cave in on to blade of ruin completely. Not sure enraged beating needs to change though. Or rather, what would it do? Crimson Death already increases crit chance ala Ancestors Fury.

Your guess is as good as mine at this point and time, but imho it should give the Black Guard more group utility, i.e: Giving the Black Guard more options in terms of helping his Dark Protector. Much like the IB's Oathfriend can do.
*Edit:* One step at a time though. Cave-In mirror would make the Black Guards more appealing.

since you are all focus on cave in mirror can any of you tell why you prefer it over do the mid KD also be able to be 2h at some conditions? i think i explain why i prefer the mid KD but none told why they prefer the Bor rework.

Tesq wrote:since you are all focus on cave in mirror can any of you tell why you prefer it over do the mid KD also be able to be 2h at some conditions? i think i explain why i prefer the mid KD but none told why they prefer the Bor rework.

While I have nothing against allowing mid KD to work with 2h, it would give S+B relatively little value over 2H. Every other tank class gets at least 1 S+B-specific ability outside of Block and Hold the Line. Futhermore, putting a 2H-specific KD in the 2H tree allows more build flexibility, with Anguish and Loathing both being viable secondary trees.

stmarrow wrote:

Tesq wrote:since you are all focus on cave in mirror can any of you tell why you prefer it over do the mid KD also be able to be 2h at some conditions? i think i explain why i prefer the mid KD but none told why they prefer the Bor rework.

While I have nothing against allowing mid KD to work with 2h, it would give S+B relatively little value over 2H. Every other tank class gets at least 1 S+B-specific ability outside of Block and Hold the Line. Futhermore, putting a 2H-specific KD in the 2H tree allows more build flexibility, with Anguish and Loathing both being viable secondary trees.

uhm i think it's quite the opposite with MID being mandatory for avoidance you will alway take mid first due to avoidance and snare and the go for half and half or full 1 of those 2, Not speaking of make the same KD version not require block rather 2h will give 3 /4 sec KD while with shield will give 5, that way

1-shield is better and you still have a cave in mirror
2-more flexibility due mid being mandatory for avoidance+ snare. Otherwise the 2h build is just mid+left and just that.

Tesq wrote:uhm i think it's quite the opposite with MID being mandatory for avoidance you will alway take mid first due to avoidance and snare and the go for half and half or full 1 of those 2, Not speaking of make the same KD version not require block rather 2h will give 3 /4 sec KD while with shield will give 5, that way

I would argue that AoE snare isn't mandatory for 2H BGs, but rather CD, HD, FwF from left tree, and ADM and FoF from mid. In order to get AoE snare as well you'd need RR 60. If we're talking about a non-core KD in mid that's RR70 (but if I understand you correctly, you're asking for a change to core KD?).

Right tree is admittedly very niche, mostly caster-killer abilities, but still viable for certain setups.

Any 2H tank will be speccing into left tree anyway, so why not put a 2H-specific KD there?

Tesq wrote:2-more flexibility due mid being mandatory for avoidance+ snare. Otherwise the 2h build is just mid+left and just that.

How will a mandatory mid+left setup change if KD is in mid tree instead of left? Is any 2H build going to skip left tree and spec right?

the assumption that the right mastery is not good is not a good reason to bind the 2h gameplay to a wing that alredy up force you to spec 2h.

you can play 2h even right mastery so why you wanna nerf it actually remove the 2h kd?

dosen't matter if BO snare is better than the BG one as exept to not remain forever that way as it's probably the Op thing destru comp tank have right know, + the avoidance for BG and all the dmg reduction are on mid path you can't go left+right unless you wanna get targetted first and die because you have no avoidance vs melee/sw+engi.

The only reason to spec into left with 2h is CD requiring 2h if you put the 2h kd there then the only 2h gameplay a BG can have with out kimp himself is go full left wing.

Considering there are 3 main skill, which are associate with 1 tactic each, the build of your bg depend on that and not just 2h or s+b; every tank have and require a basic avoidance which is on mid path it would be better not force 2h player to go left just because KD. BG have no other avoidance tool. What if i want play 2h but right wing? there is 2h forced skill to push for 2h gameplay sy why limit the 2h jsut to left wing.

The malice mastery alredy give a lot of advantage by tactics proc there are enough reasons to spec into that and for 2h only.