[Implementation Feedback] Morale Gain

[roadkillrobin]

I was playing the game from 2008-2013 and i was always a warband leader [ still actually ]. I'm saying that cause i think i got that "experience" about faction balances. I will keep it short:


About the proposal:

1) Revert morale gain mechanics back to the way they where on live

-I agree about morale gain same as on live.

2) Across the board nerf of all morale gain tactics to account for the gimped morale gain rate

-I totally disagree with that. Here's the reason:

When you fighting on open field, most of the fights ends in 30-40 seconds. That means everyone relying on "early morales" which destro lacks.

Offensive M2 of Order: KotBS [Raze] [ 300 damage ]+ IB [Raze] [ 300 damage ] + SM [Raze] [ 300 damage ]+ SW [1200 damage] + BW [MT] [1200 damage] + WH [1200 damage] = 6

That means for order warband:

8 Tanks= 2400 damage
at least 4 BW [MT] = 4800 damage
maybe 1 SW: 1200 damage

8400 damage.

Offensive M2 of Destruction: CH [Raze] [MT] [ 300 damage ]+ BO [Defaening Beilow] [MT] [1200 damage] + BG [Raze] [ 300 damage ]+ Mara [1200 damage] + WE [1200 damage] = 5 , and BO needs to hit M3.

That means for destruction warband:

4 Chosens [MT] = 1200 damage
4 BOs [MT] = 4800 damage , Need M3.
2 Marauders= 2400 damage [ Not using 2 marauders most of the times in warband, you're losing dps pressure a lot ]

8400 damage. If BO's using [Raze] total damage will be:

8 Tanks= 2400 damage
2 Marauders= 2400 damage

4800 damage.

The only way for morale dump for destro based around tanks and thats why they need morale tactics.

About the countering the early morale dumps from order is: Marauders.

Currently I lean towards reducing the effectiveness of morale pump and morale drain abilities and tactics as appropriate to fit. There's only so many times you can see Immaculate Defense being cycled on cooldown before you feel there's a problem.

If this happens, there is no way to counter order early morale dumps which will break the balance around factions.

[MT] : Morale Tactic
[Raze] : Damage per tick [300]

This is the exact reason why morale gain should never go up again.

Thanks for helping us out with a walk through of morale bombing.

Also it highlights why M2 + morale gain tactic on BW should be changed

Excellent post!

It's not that simple. Nerfing the Morale gain tactics means the realm with better static combat (order due to better Crit rates, AP regen and CC) Have the luxury of staying in static combat for longer time without the risk of getting morale dumped. And also since order have better acess to morale 2 dumps as provided by Hao up there means they will have the morale advantage aswell. This is the reason why nerfing these tactics is just straigt up game breaking. It will have a massive effect on the destruction realm, very small effect on order. There's is NO way a reduction of these tactics is gonna do anything but cause extrenal game inballance if not the exclusive tools order realm is reduces aswell. This is how the game is set up tp be ballanced. Order - Better Static Combat due to abillity boosting tools. Destro - Better in small bursts with the use of morales.

[Bozzax]

It is that simple...

Bringing back 3x morale gain /morale bombing is bad for the game. Haoj's post is excellent as he shows why.

If realms are unbalanced balance them. The stuff you've listed are more or less contained within 5-6 abilities/tactics (and mostly in one class).

[roadkillrobin]

It is that simple...

Bringing back 3x morale gain /morale bombing is bad for the game. Haoj's post is excellent as he shows why.

If realms are unbalanced balance them. The stuff you've listed are more or less contained within 5-6 abilities/tactics (and mostly in one class).

But the thing is the game is in a pretty ballanced state atm due to those Morale tactics. And it could be even more ballanced for both sides if the morale rates were the rate they were designed to be. Nerfing the Morale tactics is not gonna make the game more ballanced. It's actually gonna do the oposite. Having acruate morale rates on both realm is the sollution. I dunno if you played this game durning the time of the AP bug on live back in 2009?? This bug essentially gave everyone unlimited AP and when you got one realm wich are designed to have better tools for AP regen is that realm underpeforms coz they loose that edge. The oposite thing would happen if the base AP regen would be sliced in 1/3 like morales regen currently have been. The abillties/tactics that returns AP massivly overpeforms. Thats why it's important that those rates are accurate. Not more, not less then designed to be. Morale rates are ballanced with dmg of abillties, cooldowns of abillties, tactics, accessabillity of CC's AP regen and the list goes on and on, It's a melting pot of different things that create ballance It's just way to complex to just scale down the morale rates and then tweak the morale tactics. If decide to reduce one of these things you need to reduce EVERYTHING else aswell asuming the game is a pretty ballanced state to start with. Coz it really is.

Restoring the 6M per second per groupmembers is really the best sollution. It promotes grouping over soloing, It restore ballance to the Morale tactics, and it gives order acess to m4's. The argument that countering morales is hard is till there. But I've sugested in the past of adding a Morale bar displaying both friendly and hostile targets amount of morales so you can actully make descision based on that you see that your oponent have high amount of morale gained instead of it comming like a suprice.

[Azarael]

Solid breakdown by Haojin about the risks of handling this incorrectly, and the imbalance that would result between factions is noted and accepted.

I would just like to mention that this topic isn't specifically about DfV / YSMBD? but is about all morale pumping abilities and tactics in the game, since they're all balanced for 3.6x levels. That means the BW one as well. Morale drains are another matter, as some of them were really quite bad by 3.6x standards.

I will reiterate that I do not want to see a return to high levels of Morale gain per my previous post, so I would suggest thinking of ways to ensure that any realm imbalance caused by scaling morale pump tactics across the board down by the requisite factor be mitigated.

As a breakdown, we have the following relevant, i.e. not spec M4, Morale modification effects:

Order

Pump

BW - Embrace the Flames - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = ~66/s
AM - Bolstering Boon - any 250/2s = 125/s

Drain

SM - Intimidating Blow - 100/5s = -20/s
WH - Vitriolic Judgement - 225 @ 25% direct damage to back of target

Destruction

Pump

CH - Destined for Victory - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
BO - You'z see me blok dat? - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
ZE - By Tzeentch's Will! - self 200 on critical heal, 3s retrigger = 66/s
SO - Glorious Carnage - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = 66s/s
SH - Get Movin'! - group 150/10s on direct damage = 15/s (150/5s with second tactic = 30/s)
SQ - Strength in Numbas - self 100/3s on 25% groupmate direct damage = 33/s?

Drain

BO - Lookin' For Opp'tunity - 216/1.15s = -187/s
SH - Hurts, Don't It? - 150/2s = -75/s
MA - Crushing Blows - 225 / 25% direct damage while in Monstrosity

Most if not all of these abilities and tactics modify morale by a massive proportion of its base rate.

@roadkillrobin: But the game isn't "pretty balanced atm" due to those morale tactics. Those morale tactics are part of the reason Blackguards are lacking (because they don't have one while the other two do -> clear sign of OP) and only one side is popping out 75% damage reduction M4s on cooldown. I'm sorry, but Destruction are not so weak that they need that to play the game, and I don't believe in the concept of "static advantage" for Order to the extent that I would say the solution is easier access to high-powered raw damage effects, most of which are AoE. I'd like the game to actually be about the core skillset rather than dumping morale.

[roadkillrobin]

Solid breakdown by Haojin about the risks of handling this incorrectly, and the imbalance that would result between factions is noted and accepted.

I would just like to mention that this topic isn't specifically about DfV / YSMBD? but is about all morale pumping abilities and tactics in the game, since they're all balanced for 3.6x levels. That means the BW one as well. Morale drains are another matter, as some of them were really quite bad by 3.6x standards.

I will reiterate that I do not want to see a return to high levels of Morale gain per my previous post, so I would suggest thinking of ways to ensure that any realm imbalance caused by scaling morale pump tactics across the board down by the requisite factor be mitigated.

As a breakdown, we have the following relevant Morale modification effects:

Order

Pump

BW - Embrace the Flames - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = ~66/s
AM - Bolstering Boon - any 250/2s = 125/s

Drain

SM - Intimidating Blow - 100/5s = -20/s
WH - Vitriolic Judgement - 225 @ 25% direct damage to back of target

Destruction

Pump

CH - Destined for Victory - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
BO - You'z see me blok dat? - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
ZE - By Tzeentch's Will! - self 200 on critical heal, 3s retrigger = 66/s
SO - Glorious Carnage - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = 66s/s
SH - Get Movin'! - group 150/10s on direct damage = 15/s (150/5s with second tactic = 30/s)
SQ - Strength in Numbas - self 100/3s on 25% groupmate direct damage = 33/s?

Drain

BO - Lookin' For Opp'tunity - 216/1.15s = -187/s
SH - Hurts, Don't It? - 150/2s = -75/s
MA - Crushing Blows - 225 / 25% direct damage while in Monstrosity

Most if not all of these abilities and tactics modify morale by a massive proportion of its base rate.

@roadkillrobin: But the game isn't "pretty balanced atm" due to those morale tactics. Those morale tactics are part of the reason Blackguards are lacking (because they don't have one while the other two do -> clear sign of OP) and only one side is popping out 75% damage reduction M4s on cooldown. I'm sorry, but Destruction are not so weak that they need that to play the game, and I don't believe in the concept of "static advantage" for Order to the extent that I would say the solution is easier access to high-powered raw damage effects, most of which are AoE. I'd like the game to actually be about the core skillset rather than dumping morale.

Kotbs -Solar Flare (100% morale drain)
Swordmaster - Shadow Blades (Morale drain over time)
Black Orc - Yer Nothin (Morale drain over time)

The game is both about core skillset and morales And you have tactics that helps with both. The difference is the one realm is better at one and the other at the other. Thats how the game is deigned. I'm sorry if you don't like it. But thats how the game is. If you want something different and more mirrord i really think this game is a bad starting point. Also you can't use a Morale on cooldown as you first need to build up to it. I can also argue that it's pretty OP that one realm have 10-35% boosted critrate 100% of the time. The BG issue is completly internal and has nothing to do with morale tactics or even Immaculate Defence. The class wasn't used even we didn't had acess to M4. It's just a badly designed class. Removing the long range punts from Chosen would open this class for small scale and giving it something like a group buff like No Choppin Me from Black Orcs for example.

[TenTonHammer]

I disagree

While originally BG might have not been used b/c of how strong stat steal was, here in end game not being able to **** out immac def like the other 2 destro tanks does hurt it's viability in comparison to BO

The lack of a morale pump does affect BG's viability

[Azarael]

Clarified that "relevant" means "not spec M4".

[roadkillrobin]

I disagree

While originally BG might have not been used b/c of how strong stat steal was, here in end game not being able to **** out immac def like the other 2 destro tanks does hurt it's viability in comparison to BO

The lack of a morale pump does affect BG's viability

It does yes but it's just one of so many things thats makes the class gets shafted. It really is internal.
But thats a place for BG discussion not Morales.

[Azarael]

It is not internal. If two of three tanks give you the ability to use effects which were meant to have a high barrier to usage (M4) and the other one doesn't, then the problem is external and related to morale pump performance vs baseline morale.

[Bozzax]

As a breakdown, we have the following relevant, i.e. not spec M4, Morale modification effects:

Ideally you need to do all even M4s etc

dec_morale Ability Swordmaster Intimidating Blow

dec_morale Morale Black Orc Yer Nothin 15
dec_morale Morale Bright Wizard The Burning Head 15
dec_morale Morale Knight of the Blazing Sun Solar Flare 15
dec_morale Morale Swordmaster Shadow Blades 15

dec_morale Tactic Black Orc Lookin' For Opp'tunity
dec_morale Tactic Marauder Crushing Blows 11
dec_morale Tactic Shaman Hurts, Don't It? 11
dec_morale Tactic White Lion Close Bond
dec_morale Tactic Witch Hunter Vitriolic Judgement 11

inc_morale Tactic Archmage Bolstering Boon 7
inc_morale Tactic Black Orc Youz see me blok' dat'?!
inc_morale Tactic Bright Wizard Embrace The Flames
inc_morale Tactic Chosen Destined For Victory
inc_morale Tactic Shaman Get Movin'!
inc_morale Tactic Sorcerer Glorious Carnage
inc_morale Tactic Squig Herder Strength In Numbas
inc_morale Tactic White Lion Close Bond
inc_morale Tactic Zealot By Tzeentch's Will!

(dec_morale_regen Ability Marauder Wave of Terror 13)
(dec_morale_regen Morale Disciple of Khaine Vision of Torment 15)