Return of Reckoning

adei wrote:

Taranthula wrote:I know this might feel like a necro, but since I love the build, I have some questions:

What would you say the ratio of stats would be?

Since you mention that you run as a melee healer rather than a traditional full dps, I guess you have some willpower mixed in? Or are you running full str/wound?

*edit* forgot to mention that I am running solo, since I haven't been able to find a proper guild yet

Ratio of stats? For that build its crit/parry in renown, I would grab resolute when you can as it can make or break a fight that will rely on you rending a target, rend is super easy to counter. I stack str talis and get crit/str/wounds on gear so I can survive, have around 6k hp with 750 str, 30%ish crit.

I am currently working on a new build with weapon skill, just a case of getting the pieces I need, will give me 70% parry, 45% armor pen and there is no drop in damage as far as standard hits go, crit will however take a drop because of this, but being I run in a duo and most of the time the fights we take are about outlasting against larger odds, it might be ok.

To echo the above pan is correct, you always run the heal debuff, its just too good not to use, stacking str with renown seems a waste of points considering its on almost every single gear piece that you have, there is little point to use 2 piece duelist when you could run 4 piece merc and inf helm for 7% crit ( or some variant of 4 piece + inf ) Any tank works well with a DoK, blorc fits nicely if you want to go for some rather insane instant kills with the combos it can create, but chosen helps with the added defences it can give you to just again, outlast the opposition. Same with BG.

Why not 3 piece dominator 3 piece merc? That is over 100 str and 100 wounds and 480 armor? Is that not better in your eyes?

But second Question - if you always run heal debuff, You can't really get Pillage Essence and Fell Sac - which is a dirty combo for A - spamming fell sac when you need SE, and PE for AP drain + 100 SE - which I LOVES. But yeah what tactics do you normally run?

I use 3xMerc and 3xDominator+BL cape+ring and 200 armor resists ring set.
4x164 armor slots and rest are Str,around 700 str with 4450 armor when using 800 armor pot.
As for soft cap str DoKs....We can argue back and forth about grp protection but it wont change the fact that you will be traget of mass focusing and assist training...DoKs have almost no reliable CC and no escape abilities,a guy in robe that has no armor gets chewed happily by everything.

freshour wrote:But second Question - if you always run heal debuff, You can't really get Pillage Essence and Fell Sac - which is a dirty combo for A - spamming fell sac when you need SE, and PE for AP drain + 100 SE - which I LOVES. But yeah what tactics do you normally run?

rr60-70 is where DoKs start to shine,you can spec both heal debuf/aoe detaunt and have PE as well.

Hroft wrote:I use 3xMerc and 3xDominator+BL cape+ring and 200 armor resists ring set.
4x164 armor slots and rest are Str,around 700 str with 4450 armor when using 800 armor pot.
As for soft cap str DoKs....We can argue back and forth about grp protection but it wont change the fact that you will be traget of mass focusing and assist training...DoKs have almost no reliable CC and no escape abilities,a guy in robe that has no armor gets chewed happily by everything.

Everything dies if properly focused - as to CC and escape abilties, you should be able to see an assisttrain coming long time before it hits you (awareness + positioning), if you can't because it is too well coordinated: the former applies and you just die regardless, because your guard will be taken care off with a proper superpunt and your healers will be CC'd or pressured into minding their own buisness for the time being.
All the while you'd be taken care off otherwise, if you are not being focused, with very basic counterplay (debuffs/CC) and offer close to nothing to your group but maybe your morales and the occasional cleanse, because you either can't get your stuff to stick or hit like a wet noodle.

That is as it comes to proper engagements against people that are coordinated.

Now, if we look at pug(-only) scenarios: sure, your spec would probably turn you into the equivalent of a deftard tank with dps capabilities that still could be completly negated if a pug, may it be due conscious adjustment or sheer randomness, applies a little counterplay. Even one DPS running the str M2 would completly shut you down as you then wouldn't even be able to pierce through all the natural avoidance, sitting at roughly ~540 str - that is, if you have a chosen around negating the kotbs str aura, if thats not the case, given that we look at a pug scenario, you could sit at as few as ~480ish strength.
If we were looking at a WP trying the same, a competent premade could lower that to about 350ish with ease, not even sacrificing anything detrimental and putting the WP way below any level of effective, WS-piercing strength - which would put everything but Sorc/Magus/Healer out of their reach.
[Morales, Tactics and Buffs stack with each other, but not other iterations of their respective instance - besides some execptions.]

Now, if we look at solo roam: Yes. You could be considered a god. Until you meet that one Slayer/SW/x that happens to stack WS to 600-700 and has some sort of str debuff, then you'd hardly see any of your attacks connect, if any at all.´

And aside from all the debuff shenanigans possible, as stated by someone else in the thread already: armor protects you against meleetrains, your occasional SW/Engi but it does nothing against BWs or even SMs - if you roam, AMs.

TLDR: No amount of armor stacking will save you save you from a proper focus, it only <could> make a difference if you were playing in a proper 6man and could count on your healers and tanks to do their job. As in: it <could> give your group the few seconds it needs to apply CC/pressure and safe your butt. Then again, you'll majorly lack pressure yourself.

Solo roam, yes.
6vPug, kind of - still majorly gimping yourself as there won't be enough coordination (focus/assist/CC - all the goodness) goin on to justify that heavy of an investment into defense.
Pug(v6), certainly not.
6v6, certainly not - maybe in 2/10 cases.

There is a reason people push towards mainstat softcap.

Abbd.: Considering one can easily stack parry, one certainly wants to make sure that there is no chance in hell that natural avoidance takes effect.

Yes, most stack towards softcap but they usually have a tactic that gives 100+ of a stat to get towards that which makes it much much more easy. DoK's have always had the plague of needing too many stats and never having gear with a LOT of str other than a few influence weapons which defeat the purpose a 3/3/3 set - even though BL set is debatable as WS is almost negligible until your primary stat is over 8-900 pending you don't go too far below 400.

So while your points are semi valid, I can assure you that the majority of damage in this game is physical - and that regardless of if you keep mentioning BW's and SM's - I'd rather be worried about 2 classes pending position than every single possible person because my armor is low.

Darosh wrote:

Hroft wrote:I use 3xMerc and 3xDominator+BL cape+ring and 200 armor resists ring set.
4x164 armor slots and rest are Str,around 700 str with 4450 armor when using 800 armor pot.
As for soft cap str DoKs....We can argue back and forth about grp protection but it wont change the fact that you will be traget of mass focusing and assist training...DoKs have almost no reliable CC and no escape abilities,a guy in robe that has no armor gets chewed happily by everything.

Everything dies if properly focused - as to CC and escape abilties, you should be able to see an assisttrain coming long time before it hits you (awareness + positioning), if you can't because it is too well coordinated: the former applies and you just die regardless, because your guard will be taken care off with a proper superpunt and your healers will be CC'd or pressured into minding their own buisness for the time being.
All the while you'd be taken care off otherwise, if you are not being focused, with very basic counterplay (debuffs/CC) and offer close to nothing to your group but maybe your morales and the occasional cleanse, because you either can't get your stuff to stick or hit like a wet noodle.

That is as it comes to proper engagements against people that are coordinated.

Now, if we look at pug(-only) scenarios: sure, your spec would probably turn you into the equivalent of a deftard tank with dps capabilities that still could be completly negated if a pug, may it be due conscious adjustment or sheer randomness, applies a little counterplay. Even one DPS running the str M2 would completly shut you down as you then wouldn't even be able to pierce through all the natural avoidance, sitting at roughly ~540 str - that is, if you have a chosen around negating the kotbs str aura, if thats not the case, given that we look at a pug scenario, you could sit at as few as ~480ish strength.
If we were looking at a WP trying the same, a competent premade could lower that to about 350ish with ease, not even sacrificing anything detrimental and putting the WP way below any level of effective, WS-piercing strength - which would put everything but Sorc/Magus/Healer out of their reach.
[Morales, Tactics and Buffs stack with each other, but not other iterations of their respective instance - besides some execptions.]

Now, if we look at solo roam: Yes. You could be considered a god. Until you meet that one Slayer/SW/x that happens to stack WS to 600-700 and has some sort of str debuff, then you'd hardly see any of your attacks connect, if any at all.´

And aside from all the debuff shenanigans possible, as stated by someone else in the thread already: armor protects you against meleetrains, your occasional SW/Engi but it does nothing against BWs or even SMs - if you roam, AMs.

TLDR: No amount of armor stacking will save you save you from a proper focus, it only <could> make a difference if you were playing in a proper 6man and could count on your healers and tanks to do their job. As in: it <could> give your group the few seconds it needs to apply CC/pressure and safe your butt. Then again, you'll majorly lack pressure yourself.

Solo roam, yes.
6vPug, kind of - still majorly gimping yourself as there won't be enough coordination (focus/assist/CC - all the goodness) goin on to justify that heavy of an investment into defense.
Pug(v6), certainly not.
6v6, certainly not - maybe in 2/10 cases.

There is a reason people push towards mainstat softcap.

Abbd.: Considering one can easily stack parry, one certainly wants to make sure that there is no chance in hell that natural avoidance takes effect.

4xArmor slots are equivalent of 90 str,thats not even close to heavy investement,you can swap rings for genesis and still have 4250 armor....Im sorry but scenario when my DoK hits like wet noodle and full slotted str hits like a truck doesnt exist, a real difference between full str and balanced spec is around 7-8% dmg,fully invested armor dok will have 5k armor.
Now about positioning,you are MDps that will assisst MA,debuff,heal and offheal your group and focused targets,you play againist side that run at least 1 WL in every 6 man or less...Are you telling me that dps DoKs are not supposed to get hit?

Genesis!!!! That is the stuff from that RvR thing right?

freshour wrote:Here is glass glass cannon, simulating the roughly 900 str - and 28% crit. Keep in mind armor is way off as I had to use RR for some STR as a few pieces of my merc/dominator have armor talis in them. AKA - incredibly incredibly squish.


And here is the setup I am using currently. Which is 10x more tanky/defensive.


Both of these were done fighting 2 level 40 champs at the same time using the exact same rotation 20+ times. This shows a difference in roughly 15-16% damage. If I were to be rich enough to show you the armor discrep it is roughly - 750 with the fact that it used to be 900 - but I'm using the crow caller as the beast lord weapon skill bonus was not yielding anymore damage yet reduced damage due to not having 2% parry strikethrough. I know this isn't perfect data, but just did this in 30 minutes to show you guys that you really need to open your minds that you might not be entirely correct. DOK IS NOT A WP. Its damage comes from AA's and CoV/CoC procs in unison with Devour Essence to achieve 5-6 possible CoV/CoC procs in 1 GCD. That was our burst and it is officially gone with the GCD they added. So sure, you can hit for an extra 1-200 on an ability crit. But at maximum DPS which is what counts as that is during your full burst rotation - the difference is a mere 200 damage per second. So.... that is kinda my conclusion that being 10x tankier > 200 more potential max dps.

Like I said, if the GCD was removed, the 200 more damage added with the CoC/CoV proc is substantially higher than the defensive spec which is what made DD DoK viable on live/and up until the GCD nerf.

As you See in youre attack dmg stats you Leak about more than 200 dps ! Alone youre AA are 100 diffrent you have to take all AA all skills together and See how many dps you can do.
That means not a def dok dps ( what ever it is Cant be useful. I see nice Potential in scs in a duo there. Its all about what you play If you have a good meele grp premate go full dmg. If not go more def

The dps what is shown is youre aoe dps because it was the highest dps you've done there . As shown above youre Auto attacks are at 100 dmg more per Hit average, you have two weapons with attack speed buff thats alone about 180 dps without any skill done. All youre skills are about 100 more that means alone in five seconds Fight you do about 1000 dmg more.

Genesis is the purple Accessoires Set from blue keep Bags. There is one for heal and one for dmg for dok a viable

Hroft wrote:4xArmor slots are equivalent of 90 str,thats not even close to heavy investement,you can swap rings for genesis and still have 4250 armor....Im sorry but scenario when my DoK hits like wet noodle and full slotted str hits like a truck doesnt exist, a real difference between full str and balanced spec is around 7-8% dmg,fully invested armor dok will have 5k armor.
Now about positioning,you are MDps that will assisst MA,debuff,heal and offheal your group and focused targets,you play againist side that run at least 1 WL in every 6 man or less...Are you telling me that dps DoKs are not supposed to get hit?

When did I even remotely suggest a DoK would ever hit like a truck?
Aside from that, its about avoidance striketrough rather than dps - what on paper is a 7-8% difference, is more like double that amount post-avoidance and all other shenanigans.

And I am not telling you that DoKs aren't supposed to get hit, but that they have enough means to survive some lax burst - proper positioning and general awareness being two of them - while they will die regardless of the investment into defense capabilities if the enemies they are facing have a proper focus, just like any other class around.

You can get yourself an edge against everything thats not fully optimized with that setup (and even then the investment isn't worth it [Abbd.: outside, ofc roaming in 6>].), everything optimized will still tear through you without any trouble whatsoever, while you will lack the means to do your job.
You can't debuff or assist if your stuff doesn't stick - you can heal through normal means, but your lifetaps won't stick either.

You'd probably be better off investing into wounds if you were to run some deftard spec [Abbd.: in a proper 6man], all things considered.

If it helps: why do you think normal mdps do not invest into armor?
Moreso, why would mdps with access to a plethora of oh-****-buttons and a potent AoE detaunt invest into armor?
(Aside from deftard maras that have an excuse playing <proper> debuffbot and their monstro trait that gurantees actual returns from armor when focused properly.)

Abbd.1: As Daknall above, and I previously, stated: Yes, a deftard spec has its purpose - but that purpose is not to be found in a proper 6man.
Abbd.2: You can basiclly compare it to deftard tinkerer engi, just without remotely enough utility to offer.
Abbd.3: If you face a premade completly dedicated to a meleetrain schtick - feeding their WL as much as possible -, and you fail to shutdown the WL from the get go - which is arguably easy -, you'll be up against against 2k worth of armor debuff [WL+IB M1] if they are sporting an IB; alternatively a SM that probably runs 2h to add that little something to the meleetrain completly circumventing your armor stack aswell, a WH that laughs at you or a SL being a SL.
A min/max'd mdps (in BL/conq/gen mix and match + buffs) can get to 500-600ws with little to no dedication, especially SL have a field day with WS - now let alone SW.
If you struggle to keep yourself close to mainstat softcap postdebuff you'll start to see the natural parry conversion take effect rather quickly, which will completly shut you down in combination with the "true" parry gained through gear/rr. If you face a BW, he, too, will laugh at you stacking armor over str/wounds.
The only physical dps that will have a hard time chewing through your armor stack will be an engi, and that is without proper debuffing.
Add to all of that the armorpen WS grants - you'll sit at squish levels of mitigation either way, all the while, you, again, won't provide enough utility/dps to make up for the slot you've taken. With the only cards in your hands eventually being your M2 and the occasional cleanse you can provide.
Abbd.4: Armor is as famous of a stat to stack because 95% of the server population is pugging 24/7, and therefore does not have a group to rely on for CC/peeling and is more often than not picked of by rdps - they fail to detaunt -, or meleetrains that they miserably fail to prekite or counter by applying CC/pressure/are out of position every single time they are engaged.
If you were looking at a server filled with premades the armor would rather quickly be tossed aside as more and more people would start actively countering it.
On live you had the very same pug mindset that had meleetrains and rdps dominate the landscape - in such environments the easiest approach, whatever it is, will always be overperforming regardless. Aside from that the <really> gamebreaking armorvaluees introduced later down the road on live are far out of reach on this server, so are the toys that made the whole situation a million times worse (pocketitems, cloaks and df/wf, TB).

Dedication&Coordination > mindless stack.

TLDR: I concede given the pug mindset hinted above - you'll be better off with the deftard spec, facing pugs in 9/10 cases. The few times you run into dedicated premades on this server are not worth the struggle min/max'ing. Why would you drop a semi-godmode this environment enables, its arguably foolish of me to go ahead and tryhard-diehard like that.
You might notice its a wetdream of mine to have a competitive scene and to have the server filled with premades giving each other a hard time.
My apologies - honestly.

E: Words and stuff.