2H and s/b tanks - defence/dps comparison

[boog]

OK here is a fun one...

While these metrics cant completely be measured. Something like

Average "free cast" time for a BW with a 2H tank out front: 3 seconds
Average "free cast time" with a SNB tank out front: 5 seconds.

5/3 - 67% increase in damage OMG! SNB > 2H!

Also the thing you alluded to is MUCH MUCH more important than arguably ALL of this. "String of crits" Adding even 1 more crit to a BW combo goes from taking someone down to 20% HP in a few seconds to dead in a few seconds... So while its "DPS" calculation might be small, the effective boost to kill power via bust potential is incredibly high from adding more crit. Or even allowing them 1 more GCD worth of casting before they have to kite, adds a TON TON TON of "kill power" to your team.

The damage increase from affording a BW to stay free casting even for 1 more GCD each "encounter" will out strip the damage increase of your 2H over a SNB tank. So that as a while your team will out DPS your "added utility" so the 2H is left with no real advantage over the SNB tank.

Excellent point. Not to mention Shield can block all DMG types (and as you said allow HLT) where parry can only prevent melee. Better have a good dodge/disrupt if you go 2H or else range and casters will eat through you.

[th3gatekeeper]

OK here is a fun one...

While these metrics cant completely be measured. Something like

Average "free cast" time for a BW with a 2H tank out front: 3 seconds
Average "free cast time" with a SNB tank out front: 5 seconds.

5/3 - 67% increase in damage OMG! SNB > 2H!

Also the thing you alluded to is MUCH MUCH more important than arguably ALL of this. "String of crits" Adding even 1 more crit to a BW combo goes from taking someone down to 20% HP in a few seconds to dead in a few seconds... So while its "DPS" calculation might be small, the effective boost to kill power via bust potential is incredibly high from adding more crit. Or even allowing them 1 more GCD worth of casting before they have to kite, adds a TON TON TON of "kill power" to your team.

The damage increase from affording a BW to stay free casting even for 1 more GCD each "encounter" will out strip the damage increase of your 2H over a SNB tank. So that as a while your team will out DPS your "added utility" so the 2H is left with no real advantage over the SNB tank.

Excellent point. Not to mention Shield can block all DMG types (and as you said allow HLT) where parry can only prevent melee. Better have a good dodge/disrupt if you go 2H or else range and casters will eat through you.

Well thats just part of it but yes. The way he tried to do this, in "trying to match damage output" on a SnB tank is not correct IMO. A SNB tank doesnt want STR, in fact he would go Ruin gear for the extra 7% block chance and stack block with renown, and possibly parry/disrupt/dodge still and maybe grab cleansing winds.

Then he is afforded the ability to go for purely defensive tactics as well, since he isnt focused on trying to add "utility" damage. So the amount of tankiness he can take, combined with HTL, is AMAZINGLY more than even the most sturdy 2H tank. The ONLY exception I take with this as a general rule is the 2H Chosen due to supression and crip strikes with high crit - reducing enemy damage by 25% and the ability to still get over 60% parry chance + auras makes the 2H chosen the tankiest 2H tank by far - rivaling even many SNB tanks. Which is what I play, a defensive 2H chosen.

For any other tank, SNB>2H IMO. Even on SM, id go WW over ED. On BOs, same thing... SNB > 2H unless you just wanna PUG or solo roam or something for fun... By and large though SNB > 2H. Knights are the WORST 2H tanks in the game, they should be banned from playing 2H as they literally offer nothing to the group that a SNB cant do much better.

IBs and Chosen IMO are the only ones that should be using 2H as the IB can still do everything a SNB can, and still get a good amount of tankiness to hold the front lines.

Trying to do all this weird math, is not the right perspective... With math, you can torture the numbers enough to prove ANY point you want. So you cant always just use some spread sheet to calculate "effectiveness" as that cannot be calculated because there are too many variables..

Like what is the "cost" of a healer wasting 1 extra GCD on a 2H over a SNB tank? What is the cost of a BW being able to use one more GCD on a cast with SNB instead of losing that from a 2H... Same with and SW being able to use 1 more GCD.. It all adds up...

[peterthepan3]

OK here is a fun one...

While these metrics cant completely be measured. Something like

Average "free cast" time for a BW with a 2H tank out front: 3 seconds
Average "free cast time" with a SNB tank out front: 5 seconds.

5/3 - 67% increase in damage OMG! SNB > 2H!

Also the thing you alluded to is MUCH MUCH more important than arguably ALL of this. "String of crits" Adding even 1 more crit to a BW combo goes from taking someone down to 20% HP in a few seconds to dead in a few seconds... So while its "DPS" calculation might be small, the effective boost to kill power via bust potential is incredibly high from adding more crit. Or even allowing them 1 more GCD worth of casting before they have to kite, adds a TON TON TON of "kill power" to your team.

The damage increase from affording a BW to stay free casting even for 1 more GCD each "encounter" will out strip the damage increase of your 2H over a SNB tank. So that as a while your team will out DPS your "added utility" so the 2H is left with no real advantage over the SNB tank.

Excellent point. Not to mention Shield can block all DMG types (and as you said allow HLT) where parry can only prevent melee. Better have a good dodge/disrupt if you go 2H or else range and casters will eat through you.

Well thats just part of it but yes. The way he tried to do this, in "trying to match damage output" on a SnB tank is not correct IMO. A SNB tank doesnt want STR, in fact he would go Ruin gear for the extra 7% block chance and stack block with renown, and possibly parry/disrupt/dodge still and maybe grab cleansing winds.

Then he is afforded the ability to go for purely defensive tactics as well, since he isnt focused on trying to add "utility" damage. So the amount of tankiness he can take, combined with HTL, is AMAZINGLY more than even the most sturdy 2H tank. The ONLY exception I take with this as a general rule is the 2H Chosen due to supression and crip strikes with high crit - reducing enemy damage by 25% and the ability to still get over 60% parry chance + auras makes the 2H chosen the tankiest 2H tank by far - rivaling even many SNB tanks. Which is what I play, a defensive 2H chosen.

For any other tank, SNB>2H IMO. Even on SM, id go WW over ED. On BOs, same thing... SNB > 2H unless you just wanna PUG or solo roam or something for fun... By and large though SNB > 2H. Knights are the WORST 2H tanks in the game, they should be banned from playing 2H as they literally offer nothing to the group that a SNB cant do much better.

IBs and Chosen IMO are the only ones that should be using 2H as the IB can still do everything a SNB can, and still get a good amount of tankiness to hold the front lines.

Trying to do all this weird math, is not the right perspective... With math, you can torture the numbers enough to prove ANY point you want. So you cant always just use some spread sheet to calculate "effectiveness" as that cannot be calculated because there are too many variables..

Like what is the "cost" of a healer wasting 1 extra GCD on a 2H over a SNB tank? What is the cost of a BW being able to use one more GCD on a cast with SNB instead of losing that from a 2H... Same with and SW being able to use 1 more GCD.. It all adds up...

1) runefang
2) 2h bg is worse

[Dabbart]

Lol. The shield provides an inherent bonus but it isn't necessary. A tank can achieve the same ends by different means if they are looking for a balanced build.

Btw, you answered your own question about equating worth with survivability. Perhaps, you should re-read your own posts.

THAT IS YOUR OPINION. Block "Not being necessary" is ONLY in regards to a specific BUILD. What is or is not necessary is a matter of opinion. If I say "Dps isn't necessary" then the 2h can't possibly be more powerful, because DPS is the only INHERENT advantage you receive from the 2h. I don't believe that however. For my personal knight build my DPS is irrelevan, but I can't say that it isn't necessary in a broad stroke for ALL tanks.


And NO. A 2h tank can NOT achieve the same ends. How can a 2h tank achieve Block? It can not. A SnB can achieve damage. No 2h will ever Block.

And perhaps you should actually seek to answer a question instead of laughing and making opinions. Everysingle point that I have made stands. Cause your specific examples, builds, and personal opinions don't affect the inherent, un adjusted Numbers in anyway shape or form. You brought in "Worth" and personal opinions on what is worthwhile or not. I am looking solely at the numbers you provided, and taking the general Tank which IS designed as a defensive Toon. It can run any way you want it too. But the BASE class of Tank is designed for Defense.

W/o any spec, build, tactics, equipment. Ignoring all stat and evasion bonus' from everything. A Shield increases your survivability. You agree with this. You disagree that survivability is "paramount" to a tank. But you then say that when you build your tanks you get as much survivability as you will need. So, with that, you do agree that survival is paramount to a tank. Why you are trying to argue that survival isn't anywhere near the top of the list for a Tank priority(again, obviously talking in the generalities here. For Example Does Not Constitute Fact) is asinine.

Final point here, then I'm out of the thread. I see no purpose in this thread other than to start an arguement about different specs/builds and an Epeen battle. I have read nothing from annaise that shows anything other than this. You just want to argue and Troll. Only other possibility is that you have no how an actual arguement/debate works. Which I know is untrue, since you are very smart and I have seen you perform far better in many other threads. But the constant Cherry Picking, and outright ignoring of points leads to one conclusion You just want to try and prove your personal point that people spend too much time worrying about survival. Good for you. Not everyone agrees.

That's the great thing about Humanity. We all have our own opinions. It's just a pity that so many believe that an opinion has any bearing in an arguement about hard Numbers.

[Eathisword]

Well, I am a 2H IB. Always will be for a very simple reason (outside of looks) :

2H tanks actually get targeted a lot. We can't have as high defenses as SnB, but the fact that we go 2H is a psychological PvP taunt. I want the enemy to target me and they do. I crave all the pressure they can dump, cause if they dump it on me, my team is in good shape.

To me, psychological effects like that, trump mathematical arguments in a game of people.

A lot of people assume 2H to be squishy, which is a false assumption. They are squishier then SnB, but not by that much if specced right. I think that was Annaise's point. And some of the value you gain for being a tad bit squishier is actually getting targeted even by non-complete retards. And that, on top of more damage, has a lot of value in small/medium scale PvP.

[peterthepan3]

Well, I am a 2H IB. Always will be for a very simple reason (outside of looks) :

2H tanks actually get targeted a lot. We can't have as high defenses as SnB, but the fact that we go 2H is a psychological PvP taunt. I want the enemy to target me and they do. I crave all the pressure they can dump, cause if they dump it on me, my team is in good shape.

To me, psychological effects like that, trump mathematical arguments in a game of people.

A lot of people assume 2H to be squishy, which is a false assumption. They are squishier then SnB, but not by that much if specced right. I think that was Annaise's point. And some of the value you gain for being a tad bit squishier is actually getting targeted even by non-complete retards. And that, on top of more damage, has a lot of value in small/medium scale PvP.

This dude is probably the best 2h IB on the server, so heed his wisdom!

[th3gatekeeper]

Well, I am a 2H IB. Always will be for a very simple reason (outside of looks) :

2H tanks actually get targeted a lot. We can't have as high defenses as SnB, but the fact that we go 2H is a psychological PvP taunt. I want the enemy to target me and they do. I crave all the pressure they can dump, cause if they dump it on me, my team is in good shape.

To me, psychological effects like that, trump mathematical arguments in a game of people.

A lot of people assume 2H to be squishy, which is a false assumption. They are squishier then SnB, but not by that much if specced right. I think that was Annaise's point. And some of the value you gain for being a tad bit squishier is actually getting targeted even by non-complete retards. And that, on top of more damage, has a lot of value in small/medium scale PvP.

Cant agree more, HOWEVER, the majority of tanks dont build like we do... they max STR, get crit on renown and run minimal toughness and wounds.

Not just that but SOME tanks are inherently bad for 2H, like Knights and BGs just are not that great at being tanky.

IBs and Chosen can be great defensively built 2H tanks. I push the front line and get focused a TON but with soft capped resistances, with 60% parry and over 30% disrupt/dodge and nearly 8k unbuffed HP... Its pretty hard to take me down quickly. I also guard MDPS and spam /assist off them - knowing the place and roll of a 2H tank.

Most 2H tanks dont play this way, and thats the problem. I actually wish they somehow took the 30% damage OFF taunt, and instead somehow tied that to guarding so that it almost forced 2H tanks to actually guard people...

[Gachimuchi]

Well, I am a 2H IB. Always will be for a very simple reason (outside of looks) :

2H tanks actually get targeted a lot. We can't have as high defenses as SnB, but the fact that we go 2H is a psychological PvP taunt. I want the enemy to target me and they do. I crave all the pressure they can dump, cause if they dump it on me, my team is in good shape.

To me, psychological effects like that, trump mathematical arguments in a game of people.

A lot of people assume 2H to be squishy, which is a false assumption. They are squishier then SnB, but not by that much if specced right. I think that was Annaise's point. And some of the value you gain for being a tad bit squishier is actually getting targeted even by non-complete retards. And that, on top of more damage, has a lot of value in small/medium scale PvP.

This holds true for some classes. SM, IB, Chosen, can tank guard damage effectively in 2h spec. What these classes all have in common are parry buffs that aren't tied to a shield(or in BG's case locked away 11 points into a useless tree). Blorc, BG and Knight, are unable to tank guard damage effectively with a two hander. Of course they can spec defensively and slot things like toughness/armor talis but at that point its why not just go SnB and spec offensively.

[Tankbeardz]

Well, I am a 2H IB. Always will be for a very simple reason (outside of looks) :

2H tanks actually get targeted a lot. We can't have as high defenses as SnB, but the fact that we go 2H is a psychological PvP taunt. I want the enemy to target me and they do. I crave all the pressure they can dump, cause if they dump it on me, my team is in good shape.

To me, psychological effects like that, trump mathematical arguments in a game of people.

A lot of people assume 2H to be squishy, which is a false assumption. They are squishier then SnB, but not by that much if specced right. I think that was Annaise's point. And some of the value you gain for being a tad bit squishier is actually getting targeted even by non-complete retards. And that, on top of more damage, has a lot of value in small/medium scale PvP.

THIS....

[Tankbeardz]

Well, I am a 2H IB. Always will be for a very simple reason (outside of looks) :

2H tanks actually get targeted a lot. We can't have as high defenses as SnB, but the fact that we go 2H is a psychological PvP taunt. I want the enemy to target me and they do. I crave all the pressure they can dump, cause if they dump it on me, my team is in good shape.

To me, psychological effects like that, trump mathematical arguments in a game of people.

A lot of people assume 2H to be squishy, which is a false assumption. They are squishier then SnB, but not by that much if specced right. I think that was Annaise's point. And some of the value you gain for being a tad bit squishier is actually getting targeted even by non-complete retards. And that, on top of more damage, has a lot of value in small/medium scale PvP.

Cant agree more, HOWEVER, the majority of tanks dont build like we do... they max STR, get crit on renown and run minimal toughness and wounds.

Not just that but SOME tanks are inherently bad for 2H, like Knights and BGs just are not that great at being tanky.

IBs and Chosen can be great defensively built 2H tanks. I push the front line and get focused a TON but with soft capped resistances, with 60% parry and over 30% disrupt/dodge and nearly 8k unbuffed HP... Its pretty hard to take me down quickly. I also guard MDPS and spam /assist off them - knowing the place and roll of a 2H tank.

Most 2H tanks dont play this way, and thats the problem. I actually wish they somehow took the 30% damage OFF taunt, and instead somehow tied that to guarding so that it almost forced 2H tanks to actually guard people...

2h KOTBS is very powerful in it's own way and you can still give 10% extra crit. Js.