Return of Reckoning

The issues with the auras seem to be they were never intended to be automated. Probably why they seem so strong compared to other buffs is that is the class mechanic. If you compare it to stealth or bw crit mechanic they dont seem so extraordinary. Problem is no other class has a mechanic that an add on basically manages for you. Arguments about NB aside.

RyanMakara wrote: Well excuse me for putting it in a logical perspective of what the class mechanic appeared to be. In its current form it seems like a massive group buffing that can be somewhat permanent during a fight when a Chosen/KotBS is using Twister. I don't get how changing that idea to a single, slightly stronger stat increase is such a bad idea.

Because, in overall prospective, this all is not a major problem. And overall buff wasn't huge. It was especially funny with resists. Kotbs\Chosen can have 100% resists or so, but BW\Sorc react: "Whatever!", and nuke you to death in seconds.
So, nothing logical here, merely a desire to screw something up.

RyanMakara wrote: Tactical situation always change, BUT NOT EVERY 4.5 SECONDS LIKE THE AURA SWITCHING IMPLIES. That was my exact point by giving people one permanent aura that they will have to stick to for a minute; you can't change your tactic THAT rapidly in combat. Using Twister doesn't encourage tactic changing to change the course of a fight, it encourages bolstering 3 different tactics to stay powerful on all fronts. THAT'S illogical.

Sorry, mate, but it's a wrong opinion.
Take a hard look http://www.warhammer-server.com/forum/v ... f=17&t=696 (I should, probably, repost it to this forum).
Auras are always separated in a 3 different kind of sets: offensive, deffensive and situational.
If someone bolsters, as you say, 3 different tactics at a time, he\she's doing it wrong. Also "using Twister doesn't encourage tactic changing" is complete nonsense, or a noob-play. I'm not sure about 4,5 sec. (maybe less ), but at one moment it was possible to stick around enemy healers with heall-debuff, the other switch to deffensive set and next for offensive for lol-dps and so on & so forth.

RyanMakara wrote: The comparison to rookie soldiers versus generals can easily be rebutted by comparing level 1 tanks to level 40 tanks. As your character levels, so should your skill and understanding of the class. And, there's good and bad generals out there; some will **** up group fighting with their lack of tactical understanding, and others will excel by making the right choice. Maybe a 1 minute cooldown is a bit excessive, but at least give some merit to the idea that rotating 3 tactics at once is NOT how this class was designed to be.

Rebutted? No, it can not. Does class mechanic change from Tier 1 to Tier 4? Nope. Overall principle is always the same.
Experienced T1 - experienced it all. Yes, more skills and stats with levels, but it's all only a shell. (Personally, I would like to have all the skills at level 1. Want cast Rain of Fire on noobs. )

And, could you, please, enlighten us how this class was meant to be? Surely, you have a source code too. Share, please. It can save devs here a lot of time.

Telen wrote:

Azarael wrote:
You start by shaving off the issues at both ends
...
quickly if you actually did a good job and didn't screw it up.

Totally agree. You have to nerf. Its far easier. If you go down the buffing everyone route some will get left behind. Who would you buff first? dpswp dpszealot meleesquig? There loads of specs that underachieve but only a handful that are op. Nerfing those would be the way to go. If you were to.

Yay! True way to complete degradation. Yay!

Aquilon wrote:

Telen wrote:
Yay! True way to complete degradation. Yay!

So who would you buff first? It was a question. You can't just buff 66 specs and hope it works.

We had this same conversation on the bioware forums with Keaven and he came on to agree with my point and this is why you cant just buff everyone. Theres way too many specs to balance.

Auras where suppose to be switch but as i said auras got a buff and nerf path long history, if you play chosen you can for sure see auras are not overpowered after the nerf as in 1.3.4
kobs is different cose have 3 tactic that work togheter with auras and those tactics make aura bad reputation,
So you should point your anger to kobs not to auras, chosen is pretty balance now and do not deserve much nerf, exept as i always told about for "destinated to victory"
You would kill chosen and kobs gameplay put them to 1 aura it will become a lesser no more brainer in that way.
I alredy told you if you want nerf it in some way do not made aura able to get swith in battle, that's the better thing you cant do

AND actuly seems to be a missunderstood there is no wyA chosen use 3 STATS aura ppl please stop foolish around, all stats aura are on different path mean if you wanna Uue different aura you will have 3 less effective auras, so being ABLE TO USE 3 auras IS ALREDY A COUNTER to itself cos you have to spread all point in different things


Usualy chosen use resistence/toughnes and 3rd choice aura

TOUGHNESS aura benefith only mostly tank and in minority healer it's 120-180 toughnes mean 24 damage less?
24-36 DAmage less TO All party WHAT THE HELL ARE WE TALKING ABOUT WHEN **** BW CRIT 1K AOE!!!!!!
RESISTENCE AURA is needed to get bw/sorc damage under controll I THINK THERE IS NO OBJECTION HERE

3rd aura definite your gamplay it can be ap aura( NOT POSSIBLE AS CHOSEN stack second and 3rd path) or regen or heal debuff (THAT THEY ARE 25% SO THEY ARE THE WORS HEL DEBUFF IN GAME) , all 3 are resonable,for what they done, you have to consider that chosen have no other tool CHOSEN MOST SUPPORT CONSIST IN 1) auras 2) super punt 3) destinated to victory if you have to touch something touch 2 and 3 not auras .......

KOBS is different plenty of exploit 10% crit increase , 10% heal more to all party, 300 to initiative 300 to wep skill 300 to strengh etc etc etc... with out count all what is ok and strogn from chosen


AS YOU TOLD ME TO USE 1 ONLY AURA YOU JUST FOOL YOURSELF 1 OP AURA WILL RESULT IN NO SWITCH AS THE ONLY GOOD AURA WILL BE THAT ONE, IT WILL BECOME 1 OP AURA THAT ALL PARTY WILL EXPLOIT IT THAT MANNER, AURA WILL ONLY BECOME BETTER , YOU TRULY DO NOT UDNERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE ASKING FOR NOR HOW AURAS WORKING, NOR WHAT CONSEGUEGE WILL BE , YOU CANNOT BE SERIUS ABOUT IT.

Telen wrote:

Aquilon wrote:

Telen wrote:
Yay! True way to complete degradation. Yay!

So who would you buff first? It was a question. You can't just buff 66 specs and hope it works.

We had this same conversation on the bioware forums with Keaven and he came on to agree with my point and this is why you cant just buff everyone. Theres way too many specs to balance.

telenn have to disagree with you on this, i may look like 1 that def chosen to death and probably i am, but just ask for this change is an insult to balance and you should know it, ask for resonable adjustmen is a thing WRECK A MECCANIS IT'S ANOTHER MATTER

If you would ask me if chosen /kobs need some nerf i agree, but you ARE all focus your attention on the wrog thingS, i "can point out to that keaven agree to all TANK CHANGE I PUSH UP on bioware forum!"

NOT ALL HE AGREE WITH ME THAT CHOSEN NEED SOME IB MIRROR SKILL AND IB NEED SOME CHOSEN SKILL AND THAT'S HOW WAR SHOULD WORK

ask for NERF is just what it was done until know WITH BAD RESULT, if you all want to make thingsn balance you need to make classes properly complete, then you can start to wreck things

AS FAR i know warrior priest have 1 more tactic that any other classes in game and oh it give them 20% more heal,just for 1 damnit parry for 10 damnit seconds

THIS SO CALLED TACTIT IT CAME FROM NO WHERE... AND STILL... IT'S THERE AND STILLM **** OP AND NO ONE DAMNIT THINK ABOUT SHREAD IT FROM GAME

WHY THERE ARE 2 RANGED KNOCK BACK in game and both are on roder side?

WHY there are 2 moral root and both are on order side oh what news 1 is on **** KOBS ANOTHE RDAMNIT WRONG THING ON THE **** KOBS

THESE are balance breaking issue in game beetween realm, OTHER CC x tanks are totaly mess AND NEED A LOOK AROUND, if some tank are better than other is not due to aura is due to CC

CC MAKE THE TANK NOT TANK MAKE THE CC

Chosen and kobs having super punt is wrong in the first place as they are buffer classes not single target support like other tank.
The hell i listen ppl that tell me super punt is required to be a tank, you have **** guard and **** challenge, only those 2 are required to be tank the rest is at choice, if the only way to kill some one is to super punt it away then there is a problem in game. Those who do nto udnerstand this are for sure the same that told me in past that challance could stack with cripple strike........

You all continue to ask to nerf wrong things , what's is wrong with chosen for exemple is the fact that he can have m4 while other have moral 2, if there is something wrong with kobs is the fact that boost 10% crit and heal to all party and he can buff for 300 3x oh his stats....3 STATS +300 AND YOU STILL CONTINUE TO ASK FOR AURAS NERF!
You truly like GET me crazy uh!? WHY YOU ASK AURA NERF WHEN KOBS CAN HAVE 70% ARMOR INGORE!?

ANYWAY it seems we are going alredy too much out of topic (me too), so:

would most of us like to see aura switchable or permanent? my asnwer is yes i'd like to see it permanents cos game benefith with these things

1) less lag due to spam
2) less work for server
3)fix a meccanich that require an add on to work

GAIN CHOSEN real advantage fromt his? NO... becouse to not lost 1-2 auras while switching when get KD IS NOT A BUFF IT'S A FIX , BECOUSE AS FAR AS I REMEMBER THERE ISN'T CC IN GAME THAT SHOULD BE ABLE TO STOP MECCANIC TO WORK.

so please stop to spam around BIG AND HUGE BUFF/NERF, IF YOU SEE THIS AS A SMALL BUFF THEN ACT OF CONSEGUENCE AND SUGGEST A SMALL NERF LIKE I ALREDY DID

- not be able to switch aura during combat-

THATS ALL

IT'S CALLED SENSE OF MISURE AND MOST OF YOU LACK OF IT

Telen wrote:

Aquilon wrote:

Telen wrote:
Yay! True way to complete degradation. Yay!

So who would you buff first? It was a question. You can't just buff 66 specs and hope it works.

We had this same conversation on the bioware forums with Keaven and he came on to agree with my point and this is why you cant just buff everyone. Theres way too many specs to balance.

Whom first? Obviously elfs. The High Ones.

Balance can't be achieved, like global justice. But buffing adds fun, nerfing - degenerates things.

Buffing does not always equal fun since it only affects the players who receive the buff. It also can cause disparities in strength vs other classes if not done very carefully.

Tesq wrote:WALL OF TEXT

Im not talking about a nerf to Chosen. As I see it the Tanks as an archetype are fine. There is disparity within them and SM/BO are an inferior class. None of the classes though overperforms the way a wp/dok or a slayer does within their archetype though.

Dont get me wrong I dont think the game needs balance we all know which classes are good and which are ****.

Aquilon wrote:Whom first? Obviously elfs. The High Ones.

Balance can't be achieved, like global justice. But buffing adds fun, nerfing - degenerates things.

With respect, you don't know what you're talking about on your last point. If you continually buff everything, you will end up with power creep, which you will then have to compensate for later with general nerfs. If you are going to balance a game, you MUST peg a baseline standard of effectiveness and work based on that or you will just destroy the game completely in your attempt to balance it. You need the ability to go back on your mistakes in patches. Also bear in mind that there are some problems which will most likely require nerfing, because they affect other classes' mechanics too badly. An example of this is WP/DoK group cleanse which is simply too good in its current form, making certain builds unviable.

Don't get me wrong, I get where this particular argument comes from. It's because people react badly to being nerfed. But the exact same effect occurs with pure buffing, with additional disadvantages - overbuffing classes can be viewed as nerfing other classes in comparison. Conversely, nerfing an overpowered class buffs other classes in comparison and makes a lot of people happy. I've already outlined how people WILL deal with being nerfed if it's done correctly. They are vocal only while they think that raging will influence the balance process - if you show that pure whine is meaningless to you, people do settle down and a lot of them even start playing on your terms, by making proper arguments to support their view instead of dropping what amounts to "dont nerf my class its fine if you nerf my class i quit" in 500 words.

Lastly, it is true that PERFECT balance cannot be achieved. But you can get closer and closer to that point over time, and the game becomes more fun for everyone for doing so. Unless you enjoy whoring OP classes, in which case, gg.

and yeah I have experience in this

Telen wrote:Dont get me wrong I dont think the game needs balance we all know which classes are good and which are ****.

By your own statement, the game needs balancing, unless you disagree that balancing produces a superior game by increasing the number of viable choices and allowing everyone to select the class they WANT to play without having to worry that it sucks.