[FEEDBACK] On The Times Involved in Keep Sieges

[Uchoo]

I felt that oil doing 9k damage is far too high. Furthermore, you don't have the buff for people on the ram so the operators take 90% less damage from oil, so oil just automatically wins, automatically kills rams, and forces people to spend hundreds of gold to take down a single door, if they don't get tired of guaranteed death from oil. On live, the oil was punishing to those not on the ram and worked with the steady dps from the wall and pushes out the front door, rather just winning by itself. On live, it was the job of the melee and tanks to push out and ram-bust, instead of the oil just winning by itself. I have taken part in a few keep sieges and defenses, and although not high enough for me to state anything comfortably from a statistical standpoint, I can give you my results. My kill counter on every fight that lasted long enough had the person on the oil getting over 100 kills, far and above what our fully geared, fully supported dps were doing.

We just attempted a keep siege (to no avail, the door bugged and became untargetable) and we had 4 melee camping the oil and oil vendor locations. A ton of lowbies of the opposite faction were literally just zerging to the oil to get a tick off, because they would get so many kills for free that they didn't have to worry about anything else.

Additionally, as far as we can tell, rams do such a pitiful amount of damage to the door that they are not worth putting 4 people and more important, not worth investing 1 to 5 gold on.

Door HP seemed high and the regen from BO's was far too much, the defenders were never on a clock to make a move and they could instead just wait for the assaulting side to get bored and give up after the defenders cap back a BO or two and create a situation in which the door regens faster than the siegers can hurt it (assuming similar numbers on each side).

The prices of siege weapons seem unreasonable for most players who do not have a steady income. A lot of people depended on the kill quests for their income and setting up a cannon for anywhere between 1 to 5 gold for a melee dps or tank seems hefty.

Your system requires people constantly defending the BO's, which is good, but I find it flawed in that you only gain rewards from being at a keep; all the people who are roaming or point defending are not being rewarded. Is the intention to pull everyone to the keep at the last few moments?

At the end of the day, I feel the problem with the previous system was the lack of participation. The best keep fights I've ever had here or on live involved the defenders walling off the inner door while waiting for the outer to respawn and/or using clever tactics. Now I feel as if the only barriers are a door an a bucket of oil. If they could not could not come up with a strategy or numbers to work a defense by the time 2 doors and a lord go down, they lose a keep. So maybe the problem lies somewhere closer to lack of defense incentive or lack of realm pride.

[grimmASSa66]

My little feedback, sry for my low english skill.
1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?
Yes, doors are immortal now. Overpowered oil makes impossible to destoy them. Yes, ofc its possible if attackers will have ideal groups and best coordination, but thats will works only in ideal situation with big online. In real situation people just dont want attak keep, they just dont wanna to die.
2. Did you find using cannons on the door to be a solid strategy, particularly for MDPS or tanks who can't fit on the ram?
I love cannons. They increase epic fun expirience for ppl.
3. Did you find that cannons were too hard to destroy? Too easy?
normall
4. Does the 3min cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?
its a very very short. Oil must be fixed with increace respawn cooldown or decrease dmg.
5. As a defender, do you feel like recapturing BOs adds enough regeneration to be an effective strategy?
Not, the current situation is fine
6. Do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?
Ofc, because no one can take keep now 1-2 party is enough for devend keep against full wb

[Tesq]

another feedback, oil is currently doing 3k damage x tick every 1 sec, that is crazy, tone it dow to 1k second at least.

[Lileldys]

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?
Takes too long.

2. Did you find using cannons on the door to be a solid strategy, particularly for MDPS or tanks who can't fit on the ram?
N/A

3. Did you find that cannons were too hard to destroy? Too easy?
N/A

4. Does the 3min cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?
Seems fine.

5. As a defender, do you feel like recapturing BOs adds enough regeneration to be an effective strategy?
Far too overpowered, when 1 BO out heals the Door from 2 or 3 warbands. (t4)

6. Do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?
Definitely, although there are no inner keep door messages, something I would like to see added. Maybe these should be global for all t4 characters in one of the chat channels.

Additional notes:
1.)Nerf oil, 3k damage per second is insane, and will wipe out tanks instantly.
2.)Large sieges will be costly for casual players, with siege at 5g a piece, maybe an alternative way to obtain siege.
3.)It seems nearly impossible for 1 warband to be able to take a keep in a decent time. Champ mobs walking through the walls, oil doing insane damage seems to hinder anything beyond EU prime

[Zanilos]

1. The doors are at a point that simply makes it feel, to me anyway, that you don't progress an attack. You just rotate and hope you fall asleep. It is hard to keep focus on a door when you need to watch BOs so carefully, but we will get to that. While you either PvD or /pray that no one has a tank wall you just get swamped by pugs. This causes LoS issues with siege equipment on some keeps. Lowering all potential damage.

2. Cannon LoS is covered in point 1. attacking requires solo/pug wb players on siege. They also repair to full hp immediately after using the repair skill. When attacking a keep, tanks need to be free to move and CC attackers attempting to use postern doors. From a premade point of view anyway.

3. They repair instantly.

4. Why have any time on ram respawn? Encourage players to take the risk of setting one up more often. Guilds should of been taxing players to pay for equipment long before this patch.

5. Tonight at TM keep, approx 2 wbs of order could not out damage the regen on the door provided by 1 BO.
http://imgur.com/MuFwRyF
That is a SS of the order, not including the ones fighting Exodus
This is totally out of whack.

6. You have as long as you need to get there, as long as someone notices it happening. But I felt you did in T3 aswell, as long as it was reported anyway.

Essentially, since the changes to keeps. It really feels like a step backwards. No one wants people to get free gear, we also don't want to grind our faces on keyboards to have a tiny chance of getting gear. Remember, we have a server filled with sheep and barely any shepards. The ones who do want to lead RvR unfortunately have a **** attitude towards playing and use 3 WBs to zerg zones. With kills being the most logical way to get medallions, zerging is promoted.

RvR is essentially. Not fun. I hope you have some ideas for RvR and can fix it asap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVGgCxXcn8I Order are Mr. Krab. Destro selling Lemonade.

[Danielle]

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?

The doors took to long.

2. Did you find using cannons on the door to be a solid strategy, particularly for MDPS or tanks who can't fit on the ram?

It's better than not using them at all, but not very impactful. I think it's good this way as the majority of the damage should be coming from the ram in order to entice sorties and active play, not just a ranged trading war with cannons.

3. Did you find that cannons were too hard to destroy? Too easy?

-

4. Does the 3min cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?

The cooldown is ok, however, not with the current power level of the oil. Because the oil is too strong it effectively means that every time it's deployed and used it kills the people at the gate. If the oil damage was reduced the cooldown would be appropriate, but with the current damage it's too low.

5. As a defender, do you feel like recapturing BOs adds enough regeneration to be an effective strategy?

It adds plenty of regeneration and is an effective strategy, actually it adds too much and could be toned down a little.

Also as a design choice there need to be rewards for taking the BOs, both for the defenders and the attackers, even if they are empty. The way it is now, attackers won't move away from the keep in fear of losing out on their annihilator roll for the keep capture. I applaud your decision to make the game about players killing players, but there still needs to be incentive (a small one comparatively) for taking undefended objectives. It motivates splitting up and generating smaller fights as well as any RvR at all. Furhermore, there will be a great number of situations where neither side has enough of an advantage to push the other sides keep. If BOs give no rewards by themselves this just promotes camping in keeps/warcamps in these situations. If only the keep gives rewards, this just leads to a massive zergfest at the keep, and ignoring everything else than the keeps.

6. Do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?

Yes, more than enough.

[freshour]

Would it hurt to increase the influence gain from killing players? I get that keeps don't give influence, defenses don't give influence, I'm pretty sure zone locks might not even give influence, bo's don't give influence, if zone locks do maybe I just didn't notice it after patch, but the fact that only kills are giving influence 99.9% of times as zone locks are pretty rare, could they be doubled/trippled?

Only reason I'm asking is because I have led several keep sieges/defenses - all of which ended up with a bugged door on offense after an hour or beating our way through, or a successful defense (defense seems to win a lot now) - but you get a few guys out of party racking up 20-30 kills per oil dump - I get that - you can't fix that problem really.

But if influence was increased 2-3x the amount, those guys would get their influence, and people probably wouldn't mind sharing the influence gain as much. It's easily less than 1% of people doing this out of party oil thing, but even so our aoe was hitting the door right before oil dropped. So I was curious if there could be a multiplier on influence gain the larger your warband was? This would encourage wb's to form and not just roam groups who get 3-4x the influence of a wb.

I'm sure there are counter arguments to this - but I do see quite a bit more good than bad coming from this. It encourages wb's. It encourages kills. It encourages wb's on defense/offense. Smaller groups will still get more, but if there is a multiplier being in a bigger group will get more people out of SC's/IC/Warcamps and into the lakes (where we want them) - and even if BO's don't give influence they are a pretty good idea of where to go for a few kills.

Example -

I have 8k influence in dwarf. Earned at 1-50 a kill. Usually around 5-10, so lets say 10, thats 800 kills... and i'm not even close to the first reward haha. If it was even triple that I'd be at 24k so nearly to the first one. So while it may indeed speed up influence item gain faster, people need an incentive to get out in the lakes, and also to get in WB's as destro is primarily sc groups doing rvr between q's and the wb's are getting fewer and fewer. AT LEAST until the big fix is done.

[Nameless]

add influence reward to kill quests fpr the zone...

[Shadowgurke]

that's the problem you should not rush back.....you should stay and reapir the ram . Then any organized m4 push + oil will kill your ram in future. Oil damages need a nerf

So a coordinated Oil into M4 push is not supposed to kill the ram? Do you not want the defenders to do anything but camp lord room? Counter M4 push with M4 push yourself. Oil is down in 10 seconds and has a huge respawn timer. How do you want to change it? For Oil not to do anything? Either oil is able to kill targets or it won't kill targets. If it doesn't then you might as well remove it since it serves no purpose then

another feedback, oil is currently doing 3k damage x tick idk every 1 sec that is crazy, tone it dow to 1k second at least.

3 seconds is a long time to move away from the oil. While it probably forces the general population to rethink backpeddaling, it also makes people pay attention rather than afk smashing the door.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

that's the problem you should not rush back.....you should stay and reapir the ram . Then any organized m4 push + oil will kill your ram in future. Oil damages need a nerf

So a coordinated Oil into M4 push is not supposed to kill the ram? Do you not want the defenders to do anything but camp lord room? Counter M4 push with M4 push yourself. Oil is down in 10 seconds and has a huge respawn timer. How do you want to change it? For Oil not to do anything? Either oil is able to kill targets or it won't kill targets. If it doesn't then you might as well remove it since it serves no purpose then

another feedback, oil is currently doing 3k damage x tick idk every 1 sec that is crazy, tone it dow to 1k second at least.

3 seconds is a long time to move away from the oil. While it probably forces the general population to rethink backpeddaling, it also makes people pay attention rather than afk smashing the door.

-May i be damned why ppl do not read. Where i stated what you wrote? nowhere!! i simple said tank not supposed to exit ram cos oil is up this is dumb...
-NO oil does not suppsoe to kill 9x player it suppose to help defender in the way 1 ppl can actually doing pressure on the ppl hitting door---> PRESSURE do NOT mean oneshoot 9 x ppl istantly..
How can you even DARE to think such thing. Raw damage doing for free are always a bad thing they should be X % of ppl life maybe, not a fixed value that kill lower level and do nothing maybe to higer level players (which is not the case anyway)
-No 2/3 sec is a **** nothing when the damages are an area so large and ppl need to make it all cos they are hitting door on melee or are inside ram (it take you at least 1 sec to exit ram) and THEN i said into 3 sec cos i count the delay of the oil but tick happen too fast to even be counted. MY dok have 5k HP i got one shooted in 1 sec cos first tick happen at 0 and second one happen after 1 sec so 6k damage 2 shootted me down togheter with other ppl in 1 sec.
-Yes m4 push with aoe KB when ram is almsot near repair % is what it was used to be done in live , then in live oil sucked cos it was pointed out in another thread damages were mitigated and not raw/morale type damages. But be able to ista kill ram with any m4 + oil is freakign easy. You need a bit of coordination and focus and not just:

exit+oil+m4+re enter inside ....... cos thi is what msotly would happen in any scenario which still have these oil damages.


You need to make oil NOT suck and not make it a killing machine.... hell i will never siege a keep then, noone will ever do it we damnit tried it 3 times and there is even a stupid combo called "pull under oil to ista shoot 9 ppl" that some nice engi liked to try exploiting more and more and he should had taken at least a temp ban for that.
I cannot even belive some ppl tell around "we" should send melee to ninja to focus oil /facepalm

Then to answer you yes oil go down too fast so incredible but true--> make it last longer!!!! you do not need a nobel to do that -.-

....

That was one of the main problem in live make oil last a lot more and have a 5 min CD, make it do 1k damages but hit any ppl under him and not max 9 this will put pressure on all ppl under oil and not just oneshoot 9 ppl.
Increase again door hp by 50% but remove that damnit regen .......
All these change broken the keep siege; even divide the attention of attackers from keep is a bad move, defender will always have the advantage in any way, they alredy have the advanatge of defense.... the only exeption? --> aao
The smart move would had been make anykind of regeneration tool etc proprotional/working with aao but this wasn't the case seems and so here we are.

I am anyway against every form of regen on door....coz door do not regen HP even in any very pushed fanatsy i would find hard to belive that a door can regen HP over time by itself with out even a caster here to use a magic which it was exatly what tank done tank could reair door pre 1.4.0 by skill...