Reintroductions and reflections.

[dur3al]

dureal: For what its worth, Dresden (the poster above you) was a bit of a nuisance on the forums, and was genuinely toxic and entitled in many of his interactions that I saw. Some of his content was helpful, but the very odd and obsessive behavior outweighed the good. His in-game behavior was relatively harmless, but I think keeping him off the forums is better for everyone involved (including himself.)

Agreed on most other points though. A more relaxed stance benefits all. Cannot dictate player behavior, and I think the past year has demonstrated that aptly.

Sure, but the very same thing you say can be applied for some of the staff's replies here in this forum?

That's the whole root of the issue, read the interaction below - if you haven't already - and tell me that isn't that a "genuinely toxic and entitled in many of his interactions" stance from the staff? Not only that, but it also results in a ban even though I was correct the entire time and was actually helping them with useful feedback:

Spoiler:

What are you talking about? Are you just looking to be annoying or just foolish? StMicheal was talking about DPS which in AB EX means Righteousness/Celerity and as I clearly said using English the drawbacks to this position is built in, you use SR/TE you have no damage bonus, you use DA/RS your damage decreases, all abilities are defendable by normal means too, its only in devotion/vitality that the melee heals are able to avoid being parried/blocked.

Its not a drawback at all, because before they didn't had access to having their stats turning from strength to willpower (depending if they needed to dps or to heal), not needing to spend a tactic slot for aoe detaunt, now all it takes is to correctly use the cooldowns from the covenants depending on the situation, its a terrific buff if you ask me.

Regarding DPS WP, they were an absolute joke as was the Wrath tree and DPS Dok functioned straddling the trees and could easily pump out as much healing as they could damage which they can no longer do. When you say things like "Im guessing" and show a complete lack of understanding it can only mean you havent bothered to read the patch notes because its all right there and I would strongly advise you to take time to read them or take out your own DoK and try them yourself because I for one have better things to do than to read out the patch notes for you because you want a individual set of notes for some unknown reason.

As I mentioned earlier I've played only 1 day with the changes on my WL against melee doks and healer doks so I'm basing my comments on them, but the part where they can become a super good off-healer now while still having access to all the core healing skills & having a huge pool of willpower and with a simple prayer switch still remains, I haven't seen any decent structured comment regarding this yet to contradict my statement.

Let me help you as things seem to be flying over your head, the "point" to this was to make all spec trees viable which you are welcome to assume is a intent for "balance"

I get that, but you did it so while inadvertently breaking balance as I mentioned earlier. I've no problems with that, and I'm here merely giving you feedback, if you consider my feedback complete bullshit since "all the points" are "flying over my head" please say so so I'll refrain from posting in a constructive way anymore.

and just to help you get things in perspective because Im an magnanimous kind of guy DPS doks are easier to put down on my WH because its no longer dot dot TE spam they have incentive to spec torture and to use torture abilities and are reluctant to use RS unless they have to because it cuts their dps output.

Just because you're killing bad or pug players don't prove or help prove any point. The very same thing happened with engineers changes, everyone felt they were Justified until we started running a 4 man premade with them... it didn't take long for players to come to forums and complain about this and that regarding engineers, even causing balance changes that were quickly overturned within hours.

Reply:

What are you talking about? Are you just looking to be annoying or just foolish? StMicheal was talking about DPS which in AB EX means Righteousness/Celerity and as I clearly said using English the drawbacks to this position is built in, you use SR/TE you have no damage bonus, you use DA/RS your damage decreases, all abilities are defendable by normal means too, its only in devotion/vitality that the melee heals are able to avoid being parried/blocked.

Its not a drawback at all, because before they didn't had access to having their stats turning from strength to willpower (depending if they needed to dps or to heal), not needing to spend a tactic slot for aoe detaunt, now all it takes is to correctly use the cooldowns from the covenants depending on the situation, its a terrific buff if you ask me.

Regarding DPS WP, they were an absolute joke as was the Wrath tree and DPS Dok functioned straddling the trees and could easily pump out as much healing as they could damage which they can no longer do. When you say things like "Im guessing" and show a complete lack of understanding it can only mean you havent bothered to read the patch notes because its all right there and I would strongly advise you to take time to read them or take out your own DoK and try them yourself because I for one have better things to do than to read out the patch notes for you because you want a individual set of notes for some unknown reason.

As I mentioned earlier I've played only 1 day with the changes on my WL against melee doks and healer doks so I'm basing my comments on them, but the part where they can become a super good off-healer now while still having access to all the core healing skills & having a huge pool of willpower and with a simple prayer switch still remains, I haven't seen any decent structured comment regarding this yet to contradict my statement.

Let me help you as things seem to be flying over your head, the "point" to this was to make all spec trees viable which you are welcome to assume is a intent for "balance"

I get that, but you did it so while inadvertently breaking balance as I mentioned earlier. I've no problems with that, and I'm here merely giving you feedback, if you consider my feedback complete bullshit since "all the points" are "flying over my head" please say so so I'll refrain from posting in a constructive way anymore.

and just to help you get things in perspective because Im an magnanimous kind of guy DPS doks are easier to put down on my WH because its no longer dot dot TE spam they have incentive to spec torture and to use torture abilities and are reluctant to use RS unless they have to because it cuts their dps output.

Just because you're killing bad or pug players don't prove or help prove any point. The very same thing happened with engineers changes, everyone felt they were Justified until we started running a 4 man premade with them... it didn't take long for players to come to forums and complain about this and that regarding engineers, even causing balance changes that were quickly overturned within hours.

Firstly do not presume as to who I do or do not kill, nor try to make light out of my actual experiences both in and against those on AB EX because unlike you I have actually read the patch notes and understand them and to have the audacity to say it doesnt prove any point while you bleat on about your WL is outright comical.

Your posts here are completely non constructive because you seem to be steadfastly refusing to read the patch notes, you are peddling nothing but hyperbole and false information which is sad because you have a high RR dok you could be testing on and actually be giving real, useful feedback if you were so inclined.

Reply which was deleted and I was given a ban, but then Aza replied himself:

The post before it disappeared was:

First of all I'm not presuming who you kill or do not kill, but as I highlighted your quote above, you said that you've killed players easily because they were reluctant to use skills and stances at their disposal, that equals bad play.. which equals bad players, or inexperienced players, or pug players, etc. I wasn't poking at you at all, but if they had skills at their disposal which would make them survive and they didn't use, because they were "reluctant", then it was their own fault - For example, its like in a 6v6 fight you did not use potions at your disposal because you were reluctant and wanted to save them for later, but it doesn't matter because you died, its just bad play, there is no possible reason for not having used the damn potions. That's why I said either bad players or pug players.

Your posts here are completely non constructive because you seem to be steadfastly refusing to read the patch notes, you are peddling nothing but hyperbole and false information which is sad because you have a high RR dok you could be testing on and actually be giving real, useful feedback if you were so inclined.

I would honestly like confirmation by Azarael on this, or else why would've he posted:

I knew this would end up being a problem. I'll think of some way to kill it.

If my post is so "completely non constructive" why is it that it does seem Azarael understood my points and posted the above, and from what I can read from the new patch notes thread done right after our discussion, he does changes that goes in the direction to address the issue that I stated previously - bare in mind I stated this after only 1 day of playing while all your testers had weeks to test? I played with my dok with the .ab ex in one scenario before switching to order.

@Azarael, if I'm wrong or have my concerns miss-placed please just tell me and I'll gracefully acknowledge, I don't care.

How come I'm doing nothing but "hyperbole and false information" if the Project Leader manages to discuss with me in a formal, normal way with arguments back and forth without resorting to "forum warnings" every time I contradict him?
Now I've to deal with being **** threatened every time I'm one of the few who tries to argue in a formal manner backing up my points and opinion trying to explain as much as I can (check my post at the Engineer Cannon Smash thread) just because you have the "power" to give me forum warnings and threaten to ban me if this is not the "last time"? Why? Because I'm actually giving feedback?

PS: I'm not the one saying I'm a "magnanimous kind of guy", I mean who even says that?

PS2: Reading Morfee's post - and I believe he is a respectable player in the community - I think you can see that my comments were not "false information" since I'm not the only one pointing this factor.

And yes, the problem to which I was referring was mDPS WP/DoK being capable of doing too much healing when switching into Devotion/Vitality and potentially mheal WP/DoK dealing too much damage by using off skills from Grace/Sac and Wrath/Torture. I did intend to rework Divine Fury, Fanaticism and Murderous Intent to debuff all heals, and was looking into the idea of using 1/2 damage + undefendable for all skills in Grace, as they're all buff/heal skills to support the party and it would make some sense.

So while in the case of the staff, nothing happened with him even though he was corrected - there was no punishment at all.. And according to the what the other staff say here, there is not even a way to punish the guy or put him in his place. So surely you can see how all of this is one way street only right?
If this cannot be changed at all as Aza said it himself, due the nature of being a volunteer project, then the least that can be done is to allow some wiggle room for the players & community too, especially when it comes to arguments and discussions where people tend to get heated up and passionate.

[Prague]

dureal: For what its worth, Dresden (the poster above you) was a bit of a nuisance on the forums, and was genuinely toxic and entitled in many of his interactions that I saw. Some of his content was helpful, but the very odd and obsessive behavior outweighed the good. His in-game behavior was relatively harmless, but I think keeping him off the forums is better for everyone involved (including himself.)

Agreed on most other points though. A more relaxed stance benefits all. Cannot dictate player behavior, and I think the past year has demonstrated that aptly.

Hello, i respect your honesty in the opinions that you have given but i would like to counter some of them.

"For what its worth, Dresden (the poster above you) was a bit of a nuisance on the forums, and was genuinely toxic and entitled in many of his interactions that I saw."

Yes, i will not deny that but my situation HAS changed, i no longer wish to contribute on the forum and i write all of my stuff OFF of the forum now on my own RoR blog and etc.

"Some of his content was helpful,"

Thank you, that was the point of ALL of it.

"but the very odd and obsessive behavior outweighed the good."

That is a fair point, i accept that.

"His in-game behavior was relatively harmless,"

Indeed and so would my forum behaviour be.

"but I think keeping him off the forums is better for everyone involved (including himself.)"

I appreciate your caution but i completely disagree with your opinion here.


Folks, have you not experienced how polite and formal i can be? how nice i can be?

[GodlessCrom]

dureal: I agree there has been a lot of hypocrisy, and the staff member in question is a detriment to the server (binman defense notwithstanding). However, I think perhaps some perspective is needed. Whats happening now is a massive change that Im willing to bet none of us would have bet on right up until the moment it happened.

I agree there needs to be some actual oversight of staff, but really, we've had a big win here. Perhaps just rest on that a bit and see how stuff plays out. Not saying give up on your concerns (as they're valid) but don't overextend either.

[Prague]

dureal: I agree there has been a lot of hypocrisy, and the staff member in question is a detriment to the server (binman defense notwithstanding). However, I think perhaps some perspective is needed. Whats happening now is a massive change that Im willing to bet none of us would have bet on right up until the moment it happened.

I agree there needs to be some actual oversight of staff, but really, we've had a big win here. Perhaps just rest on that a bit and see how stuff plays out. Not saying give up on your concerns (as they're valid) but don't overextend either.

1. Forgive all of the staff with a total amnesty on all previous transgressions (real or perceived) against the players.

2. Help the staff to be more conciliatory with the players by offering feedback that will assist in producing a better and more forgiving punishment system that DOES NOT result in the server pop declining or an increase in chill effect on opinion giving or etc ad infinitum.

[Feru]

should ror need to focus to be the "starcraft" of mmos, or just an AoR emu ?

[Prague]

Has anyone properly considered the chill effect on potential new RoR staff members?

Is all of this not also driving away talented people who might have otherwise joined us?

[navis]

Hi Az,
I didn't really want to comment on this whole subjects of community-player relationships, but the fact that there is an admittance of issues is a huge good step.

just a couple comments regarding intentions
- really feel good about where RoR is right now, population recently in T4 rvr has been fantastic
- in my opinion, the project has done very well in your absence due to the huge ups of the other newer devs who have been phenomenal (natherul/hargrim/torq/others) (even though I don't really know about what is going on with devs, I keep up on patch notes)
- i hope there aren't any big changes planned to combat specifics other than tweaks and well thought of stuff. now that the patcher is here, there is also the chance to do big harm to balance (i personally don't like the newly created tactics)

So, as many others love some stuff, hate some stuff. Once again thx for all the hard work on RoR for us to enjoy, even if I will probably be voicing against proposals that I don't like, if given the opportunity.

[Dabbart]

Spoiler:

“Shits all over people obnoxiously”

“Edits all of his old posts to “.” That were out of line”

“Complains that the Devs made it so he can’t edit his post”-Edits the post

“Can’t you see how nice and polite I am!” -Admits that he was/is annoying and toxic.

“I have no desire to post on these forums! I do everything on an outside blog”-Keeps posting on the forums...

Oh Dresden. Keep telling yourself that the community relies on you... lol. Seriously, if you have any wonder, just go search for Dresden’s old posts. You’re not exactly a friendly community leader mate. And your Cartman theory of arguing (“screw you guys, I’m going home!”) never did you much favors.

you, and nearly everyone else had to work to get a ban. Even during the “dark days”. I’ve disagreed with Torque, and called him out on faulty logic on the forums, but I was mildly polite, and so nothing happened to me about it. Sure, there were some “bad bans” or those that appeared to be so from this side. But most of y’all need to learn to communicate as if the person was standing right in front you. There’s hundreds of posts that honestly, I would contemplate giving you a smack if you said that to me face. Free Speech doesn’t give you the freedom from consequences.

Fire insults at people and then wonder why they don’t treat you like your mom does... maybe if you constantly refer to someone as a tyrannical asshole, they will get annoyed by it... surprising that...

And dear god, stop insinuating that anyone needs to be “punished” or booted from the Dev/GM team. We can’t dock their wages, they only help cause they want too. The sheer amount of Devs/GMs/Mods that have LEFT should give everyone an indication of how shitty a “job” this is.

Lastly, Dural, if you GMd a priv WoW server, then you should have even more understanding. The inter webs are literally filled with twats going out of their way to **** with you. I GMd a RO server and another none MMo browser game, and I never want to deal with that crap again. Humans Suck.

/vent since that appears to be the purpose of this thread now...

oh and Dresden? I’m Done Posting In This Thread. Lol

[Mcgotrek]

Welcome back Aza

[dur3al]

Lastly, Dural, if you GMd a priv WoW server, then you should have even more understanding. The inter webs are literally filled with twats going out of their way to **** with you. I GMd a RO server and another none MMo browser game, and I never want to deal with that crap again. Humans Suck.[/spoiler]

Indeed the inter webs is no place for weak minded and sensible people. I agree with you there. Which is why not anyone should be given the position at the staff, or more precisely, a position to interact with the community, which in a sense is what Aza is doing now, by taking back that role.

But I disagree that I should be more understanding (of their actions). As I said, if you let people work you up to the point you get pissed off and do something stupid, you're not doing your job right and therefore is not qualified to do it, so you refrain from doing it in the future - that does not mean you shouldn't contribute by being part of the staff, but simply don't interact with the community.

I've suggested this 2 years ago, ignoring stupid people is much easier and way more energy efficient then trying to correct every single slide and forcing your vision unto them. If you don't believe me, just take the past years experience for confirmation.

I also disagreed back then that we're allowed to know the staff's in-game playing characters. I disagree of staffs members that make their character known to the general community. There is a reason for this. There is a reason why in most games this happens. You need to try and avoid giving reasons for "twats going out their way to **** with you", especially if you're not prepared to handle the situation, but somehow here in RoR it became a cool thing like some sort of 'top status' in the food chain, which is just stupid for the purposes of your role and helping you do your job as smoothly as you can.

Yes it sucks that you've to do this right? It really does. Why can't all human beings be sensible and understanding and we all live in peace and harmony. Why is there twats in the first place anyway? Why do people have different levels of what is offensive and what is not? Well, you see what I mean by this right? Yes humans suck.. Woah nice conclusion there mate, you've won the game - Yes you are right! - Want a hug?