Return of Reckoning

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:50 am**

But at the same time you can't really argue that large-scale combat in WAR doesn't simplify and dumb down most interactions and abilities because of the need for maximum AoE damage/healing/utility. A lot of abilities and mechanics that are valuable or even necessary in combat with 6 people are simply made obsolete, which is a flaw of how WAR was designed with large-scale combat as an afterthought. The aim of the changes is (that are, as pointed out, made as a necessity in order to fix the mess Mythic made), to somewhat revert the game back to a state where things make sense from a conceptual standpoint, then they can work from there.

I see where you're coming from though, oversimplification and exaggeration are a bad premise for discussion and too many people overuse those two tools, especially when it comes to this topic.

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:31 am**

Dresden wrote:
Making it so that we cannot redeem scenario quests IN the scenario means if you want to redeem them you have to spend most of your won silver travelling from a zone to a CC and back IF you are not just simply idling (for a necessarily long time) in a CC so as not to waste any won silver as you WOULD if you wished to bother with scenario quests in the first place under this new system.

Hi Dresden. My experience so far has been exact opposite. With this I am able to free up way more quest slots and thus can have more quests on the go.. Overall its going to be much more profitable for scenario killing for coin. Besides the amount is already quite high (over 75 silver I think) for most quests.
I hear you, if scenario pop twice in a row when you are somewhere not close to the drop off point.. I suggested they auto-complete myself..
In the end, a play session it's still easier, and profitable IMHO to turn in ALL quests at end of session.

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:38 am**

blaqwar wrote:But at the same time you can't really argue that large-scale combat in WAR doesn't simplify and dumb down most interactions and abilities because of the need for maximum AoE damage/healing/utility. A lot of abilities and mechanics that are valuable or even necessary in combat with 6 people are simply made obsolete, which is a flaw of how WAR was designed with large-scale combat as an afterthought. The aim of the changes is (that are, as pointed out, made as a necessity in order to fix the mess Mythic made), to somewhat revert the game back to a state where things make sense from a conceptual standpoint, then they can work from there.

I see where you're coming from though, oversimplification and exaggeration are a bad premise for discussion and too many people overuse those two tools, especially when it comes to this topic.

If shifting focus from ST DMG/buff/debuffs to AoE DMG/buff/debuffs while maintaining most the the same GRP utilities you use in smaller scales is dumbing it down then yes.

Just because you chose several targets instead of one doesn't mean you exercise less planning or brain power to do so. If anything you need to consider position of more targets in relation to others, archetype composition of that clump of players, if or if not rest of the WB can hit the same grp, will it accomplish the task. Whether you chose to ignore singular tank to hit the more squishy target or you ignore a group of tanks +- MDPS to hit the soft healer clump makes little difference, you still make a conscious decision where to hit em for it to hurt. You are pretty much doing the same thing, you do in smaller scales, you just use abilities than affect more than 1 target. There are, like it or not, multiple factors that need your attention during the proper play [premade 24vs24, fending off 3 times your numbers], sometimes there is more to consider than during smaller scale.

And it is not tat you suddenly lose access to the more ST abilities, far from it, good DPS with seize the chance to ST finish a 5% HP healer/DPS [in most cases you have 1 AoE tree and more points than you can put into it, so you off spec in ST trees], as they know that will put the enemy on res chain.

True you don't use all of the abilities you have access to, but neither you do that in smaller scale where you don't utilities all of the AoE abilities in small scale.

You simply have different objective in mind and use different tools. When you want to dig a small hole you gonna use a shovel, but you wont use it to dig up one that is hundreds of meters long/deep, if you have access to some heavier tools like excavators and such.

So yes I can argue that, while indeed it would take away some importance/focus form ST effects and abilities, it creates it own challenges and interaction that you need to deal with or keep track off.

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:06 am**

I don't understand why guilds with people who like to play bomb wb get treated like trash.
If anything wb guilds are the ones who roll the stones to get things done in orvr or possibly stop the opposition from taking a zone.
Wb guilds put in the most effort and hours just to take a zone IF we are even able to take a keep with 100+ defenders which is near impossible.
The keep lord will just blow your brains out with his cleave attack which hits for 5k or so.
I played tank once in a keep assault and I got smacked with cleave attack 5k and guard damage for 3k within 1s and that was the end of that.
The keep lords damage have to be lowered, not even raid bosses in WoW do that kind of burst damage on tanks and its not like the keep lord is the only thing an attacking force have to deal with in the first place.
Keep assaults are too chaotic to deal with a keep lord that glitches through walls and floors in a well defended keep.

During EU primetime the population for the most times are pretty equal, maybe top 40% aao for one side.
I can tell you another thing aswell. Phalanx can enter a contested zone with 100% aao and after we have shown ourselfs, our aao will disappear after 30 min or so.
The presence of a coordinated wb guild will scatter the overpopulated side and equalize the 2 sides, this is what at least I have observed.

It is in my full belief that coordinated wb guilds is the solution to stop the zerging, I have seen it with my own eyes.

But there is a problem when guildname1+guildname2+guildname3+order+someones mom blob up and make a huge zerg of 3-4 wb's.
I point the responsibility on those people for forcing the hands of the devs to totally nerf aoe abilitys.

Further more zergers are still going to zerg because zergs don't give a ****.

And I know that the full and complete winners of this system are still going to be xrealmers stacking on one side taking zone after zone without opposition during non-primetime.
It is going to play just the same but wb guilds are the ones who is going to suffer.

I don't like to zerg (1 wb is not a zerg) at all but I don't mind facing the zerg because then we got something to fight.
I really wish there where more coordinated guilds who didn't fall back into zerging in this game, it is such a missed oppertunity because there is not alot of games that you can have 24 vs 24 fights in.

And now some clarification.
To run a successful warband you have to have a good wb leader and on this server there is extremly few of them.
It takes alot from the wb leader to coordinate all the people and it is a very stressfull position.
Basically the wb leader have to play the game as a RTS game, he have to give commands where to move, where to attack, when to use morales and when to use CC.
It is expected that every player in the wb knows his class and play accordingly.
Aoe bombing is ONLY successful if everyone is in one spot to do damage together otherwise the damage is way to weak to do any impact at all.
There is just as much team effort in a wb as it is in a 6 premade but they are obviously played completly diffrent from each other.
To those who say wb vs wb is just 1 button smashing are ignorant of the playstyle and you don't setup a full wb to hunt 6 man premades especially not with aoe abilitys, you actually believe it or not want to fight equal or greater numbers.

I definitly encourage anyone to try and run a wb, just so you can get an understanding of it.

Wb bomb guilds only playground is in the orvr and city sieges (was at least).
6 man premades have their scenarios to join anytime they want to with their ST builds, meanwhile join scenarios with aoe builds and you get laughed out of it.

Hardcapping the population in a zone is probably the only solution to zerging one side but that still doesn't prevent players from blobbing up.

Anyways I have a hard time to see where this aoe change is aimed at, I am fairly certain zergs are still going to exist at the end of the day.

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:36 am**

Wargrimnir plz help my little guild! we have 3 leaders! fix plz / 12 Monkeys

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:18 am**

Bobbiom

I don't like to zerg (1 wb is not a zerg) at all but I don't mind facing the zerg because then we got something to fight.
....
But there is problem when guildname1+guildname2+guildname3+order+someones mom blob up and make a huge zerg of 3-4 wb's.
I point the responsibility on those people for forcing the hands of the devs to totally nerf aoe abilitys.

IMHO

You are bound in their judgment and not bring them to the end.

We have 3 starting points:
1. RvR rules for lock zones
2. Tactics, strategy and effect of fighting in the area
3. The population density in the area

First of all we should discuss about RvR rules. We have 4 BOs in each zone. After taking BO is closing on some time, That's why usually we have here 1-4 point of reason to take RvR fights. After 1st start at the keep People go together to attack the opposite keep. This is the first reason for the formation of the Zerg. The final number of players gravity points.

If any WB, any zerg, any partyes kill people, they are ressurected at WC or at keep. People gank players on the lines of communication between keeps and BOs. That's why population of people at the lines of communication is increased. If one side would make kills of enemy bigger, people hold together, because they want to take the chance to take a revenge. Or they leave zone for a some time, or x-realm. People do not like to loose, and there Guild WBs prevent with x-realming.

The next - our zones are too small for population more than 50x50 people. That's why the main question is whether the Zerg united and at what level!?

Gankers would to want united of the Zerg at the partyes, and not high.
U would to want united of the Zerg at the WBs, and not high.
Admins have the same opinion with gankers.

The next reason - Scientific and technological progress is built on a division of labor. This strategy is the development of humanity is dominant with the Renaissance. Adam Smith said that if you want to compare and find out which of the two cities or countries richer, you have to analyze the profession of people than more highly specialized society, the greater the division of labor and the more it is rich. The union alliances in RvR is the next step to increase a division of labor. The union alliances in RvR is the first step towards the enhancement of the faction. Furthermore, the greater will be the players in the aims and objectives are involved, the more general interest, and they will have the less between foreign and guild players.

That's why your position is holding the progress, as for me - i want to accelerate the processes.
This patch is the reason why some people af my guild leave already yet this project.They want to play in the big company, to make something new. Invasion mourns this situation.

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:51 am**

Luth wrote: Playing together doesn't mean that you have to hold the hand of every single warband member. Any army IRL would be destroyed in virtually every situation, if led by RoR RvR tacticians.

Luth wrote: That's actually assuming that the warband members are mindless zombies, who need every step to be controlled by an overmind with simple commands, because they can't adapt to new situations in a dynamic combat environment.

Luth wrote: That was my fault then as i thought that this abstract jpg can be easily associated with the RvR situation in RoR by everyone. I will try to find a gif or webm next time.

Who do you think you are to talk like this ? I'm really curious did you ever lead a warband for such brilliant tactical movements ? I will not accept this kind off bull **** attitude anymore.

If you actually lead or play in warbands, you could understand this party scaled flank movements fails in warbands technically because:

-Lack of Mobility
-Collusion
-Ineffective AoE CC
-Aoe Snares

If you actually lead or play in warbands, you could understand this party scaled flank movements fails in warbands practically because:

-There is no 24 v 24 instance to maneuver freely
-If you try to flank a zerg as 6 man here's whats gonna happen:

a-Your other 3 party gonna melt before you reach the enemy backline
b-Your 6 man gonna get picked from somewhere random
c-Possibility to get CC'd, surrounded.

From my experience effective flanking starts 12+ players and that means you need warbands to do it.

peterthepan3 wrote:To be fair, if warbands are now forced to rely more on ST, i.e. actually targeting opponents, assisting, proper rotations and not 1 key, then that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

that ignorance level is piercing my mind.
you guys really think warbands are all about 24 man roaming around 60 feet throwing their pewpew random aoe abilities all the time right ?

With playing as a warband what you expect:

there is no aoe rotations,
there is no debuff rotations,
there is no challange rotations,
there is no cc's,
there is no positioning [ this one is my fav ],
there is no composition
there is no synergy
there is no coordination
there is no teamplay
there is no campaign progress
there is no strategy
there is no defensive/offensive morale rotations
there is no fun

/sarcasm.

.........................................................................................................................

Feedback from day 1:

As a guild we decide to go with full MDPS [ RDPS bombing is totally useless ] yesterday to see what happens IF we all go AoE .

The general composition was like that:

2 Party with: BO+CH+Chop+Mara+Zea+Dok
2 Party with: BO+CH+2X Choppa+Zea+Dok

Feeling:
1-AoE Damage was crap as expected. [ Min:30 Max:3000]
2-Pushing backline with RD + Charge with 8 MDPS wasFUN
3-Survivability is high to due to nerf + defensibility of MDPS
4-AoE Blob Killer Moments was really rare and situational [ My demolution critted like 3 k and it was fun]
5-Fights continued really LONG like 4-5 min and it was FUN and SILLY at the same time. [ I think that was the main problem of zergy fights cause they're really quick. ]

In that moment we decide to go FULL ST to see what happens:

Feeling:
1-You need to set 4/2 MA's for each/2 party. [Which is nearly impossible for us cause i can't call the targets for my party when calling for general positional commands for 24 man while other 3 party calling their targets. Total chaos.]
2-Without sustain AoE damage, you can be surrounded easly.

Optimal solution:
1-You need to be hybrid as much as possible.
2-You need sustain [?] aoe damage to move comfortly inside the zerg but you also need ST abilities finish some targets.
3-If you see a opportunity to use blob killer abilities you should go for it immidiately.
4-Morales are more important now due to lack of aoe damage.

.................................................................

Final thoughts:
1-The new system forces warbands to be hybrid.
2-The new system compeletly forces rdps to play ST which is not OK.
3-Fights continues more longer.
4-There is a possibility for existence suicide squads like [ 4 mara - 2 healer ]. Because party members won't debuff you at all.
5-Damage scale is totally randomish [ 30 to 3000 with same ability.]
6-Keeps will become a slaughterhouse for both sides. If you get flanked by mdps bomb, it's gg.
7-Lack of mobility, lack of effective CC, perma snares, collusion, flanking is HARD.

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:45 am**

Spoiler:

Haojin wrote:
Luth wrote: Playing together doesn't mean that you have to hold the hand of every single warband member. Any army IRL would be destroyed in virtually every situation, if led by RoR RvR tacticians.

Luth wrote: That's actually assuming that the warband members are mindless zombies, who need every step to be controlled by an overmind with simple commands, because they can't adapt to new situations in a dynamic combat environment.

Luth wrote: That was my fault then as i thought that this abstract jpg can be easily associated with the RvR situation in RoR by everyone. I will try to find a gif or webm next time.
Who do you think you are to talk like this ? I'm really curious did you ever lead a warband for such brilliant tactical movements ? I will not accept this kind off bull **** attitude anymore.

If you actually lead or play in warbands, you could understand this party scaled flank movements fails in warbands technically because:

-Lack of Mobility
-Collusion
-Ineffective AoE CC
-Aoe Snares

If you actually lead or play in warbands, you could understand this party scaled flank movements fails in warbands practically because:

-There is no 24 v 24 instance to maneuver freely
-If you try to flank a zerg as 6 man here's whats gonna happen:

a-Your other 3 party gonna melt before you reach the enemy backline
b-Your 6 man gonna get picked from somewhere random
c-Possibility to get CC'd, surrounded.

From my experience effective flanking starts 12+ players and that means you need warbands to do it.

peterthepan3 wrote:To be fair, if warbands are now forced to rely more on ST, i.e. actually targeting opponents, assisting, proper rotations and not 1 key, then that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
that ignorance level is piercing my mind.
you guys really think warbands are all about 24 man roaming around 60 feet throwing their pewpew random aoe abilities all the time right ?

With playing as a warband what you expect:

there is no aoe rotations,
there is no debuff rotations,
there is no challange rotations,
there is no cc's,
there is no positioning [ this one is my fav ],
there is no composition
there is no synergy
there is no coordination
there is no teamplay
there is no campaign progress
there is no strategy
there is no defensive/offensive morale rotations
there is no fun

/sarcasm.

.........................................................................................................................

Feedback from day 1: [the first day was we were really unprepared]

As a guild we decide to go with full MDPS [ RDPS bombing is totally useless ] yesterday to see what happens IF we all go AoE .

The general composition was like that:

2 Party with: BO+CH+Chop+Mara+Zea+Dok
2 Party with: BO+CH+2X Choppa+Zea+Dok

Feeling:
1-AoE Damage was crap as expected. [ Min:30 Max:3000]
2-Pushing backline with RD + Charge with 8 MDPS wasFUN
3-Survivability is high to due to nerf + defensibility of MDPS
4-AoE Blob Killer Moments was really rare and situational [ My demolution critted like 3 k and it was fun]
5-Fights continued really LONG like 4-5 min and it was FUN and SILLY at the same time. [ I think that was the main problem of zergy fights cause they're really quick. ]

In that moment i decide to go FULL ST to see what happens:

Feeling:
1-You need to set 4/2 MA's for each/2 party. [Which is nearly impossible for us cause i can't call the targets for my party when calling for general positional commands for 24 man while other 3 party calling their targets. Total chaos.]
2-Without sustain AoE damage, you can be surrounded easly.

Optimal solution:
1-You need to be hybrid as much as possible.
2-You need sustain [?] aoe damage to move comfortly inside the zerg but you also need ST abilities finish some targets.
3-If you see a opportunity to use blob killer abilities you should go for it immidiately.
4-Morales are more important now due to lack of aoe damage.

.................................................................

Final thoughts:
1-The new system forces warbands to be hybrid.
2-The new system compeletly forces rdps to play ST which is not OK.
3-Fights continues more longer.
4-There is a possibility for existence suicide squads like [ 4 mara - 2 healer ]. Because party members won't debuff you at all.
5-Damage scale is totally randomish [ 30 to 3000 with same ability.]
6-Keeps will become a slaughterhouse for both sides. If you get flanked by mdps bomb, it's gg.
7-Lack of mobility, lack of effective CC, perma snares, collusion, flanking is HARD.

same view, but yesterday I did not have the willingness to test options and collect sane forces.

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:11 am**

Yesterday testing showed that people still blobing. Are you surprised? You think people will adapt later? No, they cant and they should not. Cause simple wishes to play together and ORVR conditions forces them to do it and this game is giving a lot of tools to do it properly, why you think its bad?
Are you expecting that people will disband their wbs to several groups and will start to run around separately? For that you need much more selfish leaders to do it and players to be robots, without emotions, wishes, who will just press assist button without thinking about realm progress, guild pride, personal contribution to team progress, BOs, keeps, timers. I will explain why:
Self contribution to team and realm success is not palpable at all now. Its like playing at tier 1. For acquaintance its good but its useless playstyle which cant reward your team and realm with ORVR success (fighting with enemy wbs for 4-10 mins cause of impossibility to kill them all just in time for controlling BO for example - timers of BOs are too short for that). And its just boring.

I see several people who support this new changes act like clever tacticians, maestros of ORVR and strategy, just teach us some tricks if you know better? You will not tell, cause you dont know how, you dont have expirience of that, you have only fears and wild guesses, im reading it in every post about aoe and zerging. You even dont care about it. But you think you have right to judge it. You are defending artificial selfish gamestyle in real WAR oriented game and i call you to stop it and analyse your skills and knowledge about RVR design 1 more time. Im not blaming you, i wish you to evolve a bit. With us, why not.

Im inviting everybody who thinks that aoe bombing is very simple and silly playstyle like just pressing 1-2 buttons to play with us at WB day, dont be shy. We love you all.

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:19 am**

Komode wrote: Are you expecting that people will disband their wbs to several groups and will start to run around separately? For that you need much more selfish leaders to do it and players to be robots, without emotions, wishes, who will just press assist button without thinking about realm progress, guild pride, personal contribution to team progress, BOs, keeps, timers

For the success of the patch, we need a fully working Enemy addon with working assists

Return of Reckoning

Patch Notes 31/1/2017

Re: Patch Notes 31/1/2017

Re: Patch Notes 31/1/2017

Re: Patch Notes 31/1/2017

Re: Patch Notes 31/1/2017

Re: Patch Notes 31/1/2017

Re: Patch Notes 31/1/2017

Re: Patch Notes 31/1/2017

Re: Patch Notes 31/1/2017

Re: Patch Notes 31/1/2017

Re: Patch Notes 31/1/2017