Recent Topics

Ads

[Warrior Priest] - Grace

Discuss Knight of the Blazing Sun, Bright Wizard, Witch Hunter, and Warrior Priest.
Forum rules
Before posting in this forum, please read the Terms of Use.

Optional: Start your topic title with your class in brackets (e.g., [Shaman]). It helps others find your post faster.
BrosephStylin
Posts: 56

Re: Warrior Priests - Grace

Post#331 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:48 pm

Azarael wrote:That wasn't my point, though. If I thought Grace was competitive with Salvation in ANY area of the game, I wouldn't be supporting this thread.

My point is that Grace need not outcompete Salvation at everything. It need only be a viable choice in some area of the game. My focus is on smaller scale engagements because of the WP and DoK's vulnerability and desirability as a target if they're played in the front line and how the risk increases massively as more players enter the field.

When even dedicated melee DPS are only valid choices in large-scale RvR because of access to AoE specs, pushing Grace towards a single target DPS in an attempt to give it zerg viability is foolish.
I want to give it ANY VIABILITY. Buffing the heals is an empty gesture including small scale, because it will still be unreliable due to you just getting kited because surprise, you're a melee healer. Salvation will always be the preferred healer. Which is why I am saying they will always be a dps slot, which means: GIVE THEM DPS

Only when you realize that Grace or even wrath are as desirable as salvation because they excel in different but important areas, will the class be actually balanced. This is my opinion for all classes.

Ads
User avatar
Scrilian
Posts: 1570

Re: Warrior Priests - Grace

Post#332 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:53 pm

BrosephStylin wrote: All the specilizations must be equal and as desirable as the next, the same goes for every class.
No, they should excel at certain niches. WAR/RoR was not about equality and never will be, this is not WoW.
If you want to be competitive you either minmax the best possible class-spec for certain role.
Or you want to play for fun and in my book you are out of my warband/group, plain and simple. ;)
Вальтер Рыжий RU => Gaziraga BW, Valefar WL, Lovejoy
Retired
ex-Greenfire/Invasion RvR leader
Wonderful RvR music videos ;)

BrosephStylin
Posts: 56

Re: Warrior Priests - Grace

Post#333 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:08 pm

Scrilian wrote:
BrosephStylin wrote: All the specilizations must be equal and as desirable as the next, the same goes for every class.
No, they should excel at certain niches. WAR/RoR was not about equality and never will be, this is not WoW.
If you want to be competitive you either minmax the best possible class-spec for certain role.
Or you want to play for fun and in my book you are out of my warband/group, plain and simple. ;)
Yes, they must excel at certain niches, but Grace excels at none, except maybe 1v1, but then it can just be kited and killed.

User avatar
Scottx125
Posts: 977

Re: Warrior Priests - Grace

Post#334 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:43 pm

Scrilian wrote:
BrosephStylin wrote: All the specilizations must be equal and as desirable as the next, the same goes for every class.
No, they should excel at certain niches. WAR/RoR was not about equality and never will be, this is not WoW.
If you want to be competitive you either minmax the best possible class-spec for certain role.
Or you want to play for fun and in my book you are out of my warband/group, plain and simple. ;)
I think 1v1, they have always excelled at that. And since WP Grace has never been about massive DPS they should be able to outlast enemies with a large HP pool and strong self-healing abilities and group healing abilities via melee combat. And the WP needs a way of breaking snares or knockdowns, or atleast having greater immunity to them as knockdowns pretty much mean the WP is dead, for a class that relies on healing to survive for any length of time, any downtime is catastrophic.
Spoiler:
Seiigfrid RR 8X WP | Arthasus RR 7X KOTBS | Zalthazar RR 5X BW
Image
For the Gif in it's full glory:
Now a member of Oath.

User avatar
PartizanRUS
Posts: 612

Re: Warrior Priests - Grace

Post#335 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:27 pm

BrosephStylin wrote:
Azarael wrote:If you attempt to buff the damage and support instead of the heals, you risk moving the class into the classic hybrid position, in that its maximum healing output will not be competitive with a pure healer and as such you will not get any slot in any kind of group that wants to win.

I've said it so many times in this thread and I'm still waiting for a decent reply to it - nobody wants a hybrid. You either compete as a strong DPS or as a strong healer, but if you try to split evenly between two things, you suddenly are no longer good enough. The only way it actually works is if you are competitive at ONE thing and have the ability to do another thing, but with the balancing factor of risk involved.

The reason you have unreliable heals is because of MAD. Get kicked out of the front line and you're forced to rely on casted heals that were deliberately gimped thanks to crappy design choices. Again, it seems people are looking at the current state of the game and trying to dictate what the class' role is based on that. If playing Grace has too many simple counters, deal with that instead of trying to create a melee DPS out of a class that isn't competently designed around that ideal.
What? It is already a COMPLETE classic hyrbid, with me doing almost the exact amount of damage as heals in every scenario I do. That is why I am saying buff the damage, to move it into a dps/buff role with the added bonus of heals and protection. This will allow grace wps to be properly placed in organized guild dps positions, instead of them just filling gaps as they do right now. Buffing the heals WILL NOT CHANGE THEIR ORVR POSITION. Melee healers are terrible healers for orvr, because them getting close during melee is rare and shortlived, with ranged healers healing constantly.
Bro have a point. Grace is more like Balance build. You just forgot that Divine Mend was an no-cd actual attack that heals your defensive target by amount based on the damage done before Mythics made it quick cast with 5 sec. cd. Maybe because it was physical damage that was mitigated, I don't remember now, it was years ago. Notice the sword icon, they never changed it.
So in theory there is possibility to revert this change if needed or make a new clone skill that works like that with spirit damage and name like "Divine Attack". Its just a theory and it will impact class balance.
Scrilian wrote:If WP is in the group with 2 other healers and you buff him 2handed to the point that he will be having fun - no one else will. ;)
Nonsense, you will have more WPs and more heals.
BrosephStylin wrote:
ThePollie wrote:
BrosephStylin wrote: You just compared a healer to three pure damage classes. They are, like tanks, have completely different specializations. The only things you should be comparing WP to are other healing classes. Many of which have far better lifetaps specs than Grace WP. All of the tanks and healers specs can be applied in orvr, so should Grace WP.
Grace and Wrath both can be applied to oRvR.

This might be a mild shock, but bear with it, a class does not need to perform 100% as well as every other in oRvR to be used in that environment. Grace has disadvantages in large-scale combat, it happens.
Not just disadvantages, but both specs have long stints of complete uselessness, just like other single target dps. Except they don't nearly perform as well as other single target dps in orvr engagements, which MUST BE FIXED.
Well, Wrath tree is useless. No heals, no good damage, its was like a joke from Mythic.
Last edited by PartizanRUS on Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Burn heretics and mutants, purge the unclean. ingame - Partizan . Hammer of Sigmar guild [RUS]
Image https://i.imgur.com/Un7WASp.jpg Image Image

Zanilos
Posts: 444

Re: Warrior Priests - Grace

Post#336 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:32 pm

EVERYTHING just got rekt by new Dev changes :)
Image

BrosephStylin
Posts: 56

Re: Warrior Priests - Grace

Post#337 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:36 pm

Zanilos wrote:EVERYTHING just got rekt by new Dev changes :)
YEP, goodbye grace WP.

ThePollie
Banned
Posts: 411

Re: Warrior Priests - Grace

Post#338 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:42 pm

A massive kettle of tea for the developers, I'm already loving the new stat spread of the new armours.

If I could see Sigmar's Shield buffed too, that would make my year.

Ads
ThePollie
Banned
Posts: 411

Re: Warrior Priests - Grace

Post#339 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:00 pm

Massive wall of text behind this spoiler. You were warned.
Spoiler:
ThePollie wrote:Sigmar's Shield.

Statistical base - 25 Action point per cast, 20 Righteous Fury per heal when attacked. 174 damage, 86 health restored. Duration is 20 seconds, cool down is 20 seconds.

Statistical minimum when Mastery is added - 25 Action point per cast, 20 Righteous Fury per heal when attacked. 221 damage, 116 health restored. Duration is 20 seconds, cool down is 20 seconds.

Statistical maximum, before gear - 25 Action point per cast, 20 Righteous Fury per heal when attacked. 236 damage, 136 health restored. Duration is 20 seconds, cool down is 20 seconds.

Strength improves damage per strike, but healing is unaffected by scaling outside of Mastery points.

When a target is struck by Sigmar's Shield, they receive damage and the Warrior-priest's defensive target is granted the Shield. If any attack connects against the Shielded target, they are healed for X and 20 Righteous Fury is drained from the Warrior-priest that originally cast the ability.

This ability has several uses - Cast it on an ally as a fire-and-forget means to heal them. Combined with Healing Hand, and you can actually manage a respectable amount of healing for how little effort is made. The Warrior-priest can cast it on themselves, as a preemptive defense if they are suddenly attacked, themselves. The ability has the same damage model of Sigmar's Vision, Grace's hardest hitting ability, and can be used to moderately spike damage. I do not advise doing that, if you attempt to test the ability, for reasons about to be mentioned.

What prevents many Warrior-priests from spending a mastery point for this ability are two crippling facts. Sigmar's Shield has no internal cooldown, with a massive Righteous Fury cost for how little healing it grants. In a one-on-one situation, you can expect anywhere between one and three Shield activations per second, amounting to 20-60 Righteous Fury drained per second. This averages to 40, when an auto-attack is chained with an ability.

This is manageable. Sigmar's Radiance, Path of Grace's often used filler and primary lifetap, builds 40 Righteous Fury per strike. Enough to counter the drain with continued use. Though a sudden barrage can severely drain Righteous Fury, this problem is magnified in group play. Should a target being focused be Shielded, the Warrior-priest can expect as many as six to fifteen activations in a matter of a second or two, which can devastate their resource pool.

Worse, once this ability is activated, you can not disable it yourself. This often results in the Warrior-priest being drained completely, with depressingly little healing done for how much was spent.

Compared with Divine Assault, which heals for 350% of damage dealt per strike, at a cost of 25 Righteous Fury per strike. Even through severe mitigation, Divine Assault can easily manage 300 health restored per 25 Righteous Fury, nearly triple that of Sigmar's Shield, while also remaining dramatically easier to control and allowing the possibility of switching targets to spread the healing around more efficiently. Combined with proper target acquisition and a lucky critical strike, DIvine Assault can manage upward to 700 health restored per strike, per 25 Righteous Fury.

As the two use the same resource, many rightly decide that Divine Assault is the better of the two, and spend their mastery point elsewhere. This leaves the ability unused, apart from those uninformed or play-testing it.

Proposed changes.

Buffing this ability is going to piss people off, I'll state that now. Despite how weak it is, strategic use of this ability can make a Warrior-priest virtually impossible to kill in one-on-one. If buffed, this will amplify that.

In my opinion, it's a good thing. It's something we've been bringing to the table, already. Our ability to face someone down and stand our ground, unsupported, has given us something few other healers have. We don't have to kite the Marauder, we can stand and fight it out with them, all while maintaining our healing. Our ability to not be simply bulldozed by the first DPS class to target is an advantage, though small compared to the disadvantage of how easily focused and trained into death we are.

There has been talk in the past of multiplying the heal, so that the Righteous Fury loss is at least met with solid healing. I do not want this. Sigmar's Shield effectively mitigates damage per strike, and increasing the heal too greatly could effectively allow the Shielded target to ignore every bit of non-burst damage until either the effect ends or the Warrior-priest is drained or killed.

The greatest fault this ability has lies in the lack of an internal cool down. Something as simple as restricting the heal-per-strike activation to 0.5 seconds would do a great deal with making this ability manageable, though would hurt its potential healing. Inside of a one-on-one, two strikes per second is about what you can expect, but in group settings you can easily get vast numbers higher.

Increasing the base heal from 86/116/136 to 186/216/236 would make the heal more efficient. It won't compare to Divine Assault's potential, but Divine Assault is also incredibly easy to interrupt.

Reducing the Righteous Fury cost could also help the ability, but I'm on the fence about it. Lowering the cost from 20 Righteous Fury to 15 could help, but the primary concerns are how little it heals for how much it drains, and how little control you have over this ability.

Combined, increasing the base heal by 100 health and setting a 0.5 second internal cool down per activation would do a great deal toward making this ability worth using. The action point cost is fine, on par with our other attacks, and I'd even consider increasing it from 25 to 30, if the healing is improved. As it is, its only true use is within one-on-one duels, duo-roaming, and to crash your Righteous Fury.
Quoted for reference, so nobody has to dig through the thread to find it.
In continuation, Sigmar's Shield could have a bit of a burst heal, instead. Internal cool down of 5 seconds, when the target is struck they are immediately healed three times over three seconds, for about 236 a tick, draining 20 Righteous Fury per tick. Allows the ability to provide some recovery from burst damage from singular abilities, instead of Shield only healing 136(current base) health triggered from an attack that dealt 2300 damage.

User avatar
PartizanRUS
Posts: 612

Re: Warrior Priests - Grace

Post#340 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:44 pm

ThePollie wrote:Massive wall of text behind this spoiler. You were warned.
Sigmar's Shield.
Statistical maximum, before gear - 25 Action point per cast, 20 Righteous Fury per heal when attacked. 236 damage, 136 health restored. Duration is 20 seconds, cool down is 20 seconds.

Strength improves damage per strike, but healing is unaffected by scaling outside of Mastery points.

When a target is struck by Sigmar's Shield, they receive damage and the Warrior-priest's defensive target is granted the Shield. If any attack connects against the Shielded target, they are healed for X and 20 Righteous Fury is drained from the Warrior-priest that originally cast the ability.
You don't have to do any deep research to know that Sigmar's Shield is crap and nobody sane used it in pvp builds ever. Any significant r.f. drain is a big No for 2h builds. Either devs can decrease r.f. drain x* times or dont bother.
Burn heretics and mutants, purge the unclean. ingame - Partizan . Hammer of Sigmar guild [RUS]
Image https://i.imgur.com/Un7WASp.jpg Image Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests