[Warrior Priest] - Grace

[BrosephStylin]

Pure damage classes have that setup, but tanks and healers do not. Their specializations are completely different playstyles from eachother, with each one having completely different applications, both in orvr AND scenarios. Grace WP should fill this requirement.

Still almost every spec is divided between orvr tree, scen tree and utility tree. Now you want your utility tree to compete with your rvr tree and thats ludicrous.

Please tell which tank tree the DPS one and tank one goes in, because both are perfect for either orvr or scen. WP does not have that setup, and niether do many other classes. WP is either a healer, a dps, or a buff/dps. All of those specs should be viable in scens or orvr just like tanks and other healers.

[ThePollie]

^Which is precisely what warranted the recent additions to the class, and this thread as a whole.

Welcome on board.

However it must be noted that Grace DPS - although it must be buffed imo - should not be buffed to a point where it would render Wrath useless. Wrath should still be the 'DPS' spec (and, I agree, able to fill in a DPS slot), while Grace is more of a utility/dps hybrid.

Wrath is largely useless. As it stands, its damage is subpar enough that Grace does just as fine a job, with a great deal more support and survivability. Still, not the thread for it.

[peterthepan3]

Broseph:

In large-scale RVR, there is only one viable healing archetype spec - that of a healer (maaaaybe aoe zealot/rp aside if bombing)
One viable tank spec (if you go 2h as a tank, you'll be focused down and splat. By not using a shield and being defensive, you become more of a liability than a useful component to a group)

[BrosephStylin]

Yes actually, all of those classes you listed are more viable in orvr engagements than grace WP, lol. Maybe not the best, but definitely superior than Grace or Wrath WP.

Of course they're more viable. They're still inferior, though, aren't they? SM is an obvious example - if you're playing SM in zerg engagements, you should have a shield on and be specced for Whispering Winds. It's exactly the same issue.

Yes, inferior. But on the list of inferior specs, The WP dps specs are pretty much at the very bottom. It can still be inferior, but maybe as inferior as everyone else that isn't specced for bombing warbands, huh?

[BrosephStylin]

Broseph:

In large-scale RVR, there is only one viable healing archetype spec - that of a healer (maaaaybe aoe zealot/rp aside if bombing)
One viable tank spec (if you go 2h as a tank, you'll be focused down and splat. By not using a shield and being defensive, you become more of a liability than a useful component to a group)

This is live mindset though, keeping weak specs weak and strong specs strong. Balance is what this thread should be about, and Grace needs a buff to be balanced.

[Azarael]

Yes, inferior. But on the list of inferior specs, The WP dps specs are pretty much at the very bottom. It can still be inferior, but maybe as inferior as everyone else that isn't specced for bombing warbands, huh?

The point from here has basically made itself.

Balancing is done for the purpose of making classes viable choices in groups which care about actually winning. Such a group will always prefer to use the most powerful combination accessible to it.

WP and DoK already have a spec which is powerful and desirable for ORvR (Salvation / Dark Rites), so it is absolutely pointless to shift the design intent of Grace and Sacrifice to accomodate RvR at the cost of its depth in smaller scale engagements if you can't make the spec compete with either Salvation or AoE DPSers, which it never will.

I don't see what's left to discuss about it.

[BrosephStylin]

Yes, inferior. But on the list of inferior specs, The WP dps specs are pretty much at the very bottom. It can still be inferior, but maybe as inferior as everyone else that isn't specced for bombing warbands, huh?

The point from here has basically made itself.

Balancing is done for the purpose of making classes viable choices in groups which care about actually winning. Such a group will always prefer to use the most powerful combination accessible to it.

WP and DoK already have a spec which is powerful and desirable for ORvR (Salvation / Dark Rites), so it is absolutely pointless to shift the design intent of Grace and Sacrifice to accomodate RvR at the cost of its depth in smaller scale engagements if you can't make the spec compete with either Salvation or AoE DPSers, which it never will.

I don't see what's left to discuss about it.

But that is the ENTIRE PROBLEM! Salvation is 100% preferable over grace, including scenarios, which is a CLEAR and blatant sign that grace is underpowered! When a class has literally only one viable specialization and everything else is worthless in comparison, it is a very open sign of unbalance. All the specilizations must be equal and as desirable as the next, the same goes for every class. WP has the biggest issue here, with every other class having a time and place for their different specs, but WP only has one clear choice.

If you truly believe that this is fair and balanced, then I will give up trying, but something is very wrong when 2 entire specializations shouldn't even exist in the game as far as wanted builds go.

[ThePollie]

But that is the ENTIRE PROBLEM! Salvation is 100% preferable over grace

This is largely because Salvation does its job with very little effort and from a sizable degree of safe distance, while Grace must work a great deal harder to do its job, while being incredibly vulnerable to every available counter in the game.

[BrosephStylin]

But that is the ENTIRE PROBLEM! Salvation is 100% preferable over grace

This is largely because Salvation does its job with very little effort and from a sizable degree of safe distance, while Grace must work a great deal harder to do its job, while being incredibly vulnerable to every available counter in the game.

Exactly! Grace is more dangerous and harder to achieve, which means it should yield more rewards once successful. It needs to be better, no two ways about it.

[Azarael]

That wasn't my point, though. If I thought Grace was competitive with Salvation in ANY area of the game, I wouldn't be supporting this thread.

My point is that Grace need not outcompete Salvation at everything. It need only be a viable choice in some area of the game. My focus is on smaller scale engagements because of the WP and DoK's vulnerability and desirability as a target if they're played in the front line and how the risk increases massively as more players enter the field.

When even dedicated melee DPS are only valid choices in large-scale RvR because of access to AoE specs, pushing Grace towards a single target DPS in an attempt to give it zerg viability is foolish.