Overarching balance changes

[Dabbart]

Wait... This thread had a topic other than random petty semantic arguments?

[Luth]

Spoiler:

A 10-20 second CD on guard would be insane. Really good coordinated groups can already fake their focus on one target and burst the real target the moment the tank removes guard from it, even without a CD on guard.
Such a huge cooldown just transfers the easymode from the tank to the enemy DDs.

I'd rather see that the guardbuff is not a single buff, but has several stacks.
When the tank switches guard to another target, it gets 25% protection at the beginning with an increase of 5% per additional stack up to 50%; every second one stack is added, so that after 6 seconds it has the full 50% protection.
Stacks are lost completely on guard switch and begin to tick again on the new target ofc.
Numbers need to be balanced, could be also 20% initial protection with +10% per second for a higher impact in the moment of the switch, but faster regen to 50% etc. pp.

Guard should be balanced without weakening the base role of tanks (protection/support).

How about a 5 sec CD on Guard? We can atleast try it out for awhile.

Why?
If it works like in my post, it would have a CD for part of the abilities efficiency for a certain amount of time (numbers could be tuned, as written) without weakening the tanks base role.
A complete lock for guard on 5 seconds CD would mean an extremely dumbed down guard ability and more easymode for DDs.

If DDs have problems to counter a good tank (who can switch guard fast/pays attention) because the buff is too strong, the solution posted would solve this without punishing the tank for being good.

[peterthepan3]

Note of the beginning: I'm not a scenario farm guy, most of you know me This suggesiton is for all community including casual players. Scenarios should be enjoyable for everyone and %50 damage mitigation in small scale is OP. Setup wins the most of the matches not skill.

Guard is not easly dealt with in smallscale. You can check your own 6 vs 6 videos. No kills for 10-15 mins. Maybe it's enjoyable and easy for you but %90 of players don't like this kind of pvp. Being inside in 30 feet while doing nothing shouldn't give you a big advantage.

1) Why is it not 'op' in large scale rvr, with much more people playing and therefore more healers who can help the focused target?

2) That's how 6v6 works if you're up against a competitive group: you have to wait it out, look for a weakness or opportune moment and make the most of it. Actually you get kills much quicker than that, the only fights where it took long were against enigma - and that's to be expected as they are the server's best 6v6 guild.

3) As has been stated several times: balance ought not revolve around pandering to people who don't want to put the effort in; balance should revolve around competitive, exceptional play, i.e. players playing their classes to the best of their abilities.

I accept your arguments for countering guard if competitive isolated 6 vs 6. You cannot do these counters with random immunity giver pug players.

...hence why changes/balancing should not revolve around said random immunity giver pug players. A player giving free immunities whenever he can is responsible for that bad gameplay himself/herself.

You forgetting about "surprise" factor in RvR. Always a possibility for getting zerged while small scale. %50 damage mitigation is balanced for massive fights not 6 vs 6.

How so? Have you done any 6v6? Have the vast majority of people who do mentioned guard being OP? XD

O rly ? I thought guard never be countered . Man seriously try to teach casual players how to coordinate counterguard without any voip. Premade > Casuals %99 and it's boring as hell

Again - balancing things should not revolve around the gaming experiences of people who don't want to put in any effort nor learn the game's mechanics.

We're doing the same thing when we play scenarios. It's easy mode agaist casuals and it's not fun.

Wait are we talking about scenarios (12v12) or 6v6? And nobody said premade vs pug isn't easy - which is why most premades don't really care for casual scenarios unless farming - but you don't seem to mind in RvR when you guys effectively neuter any order threat by blobbing them to death (surely that is easy, too? )

I'm repeating again: %50 damage mitigation is too strong for small scale and impossible to counter with casual players.

But - as has been proven - it is possible to counter by anyone who learns to play in a group and knows the game's mechanics: punting at the right moment, baiting a target for a guard swap, mass debuffing the guarded target so they still take a hell of a lot of DPS, ccing the healers etc.

Similarly fighting against an organised wb such as Phalanx with 8 DPS all guarded in RvR is impossible to counter for casual players, so what's your point? =D

[saupreusse]

A 10-20 second CD on guard would be insane. Really good coordinated groups can already fake their focus on one target and burst the real target the moment the tank removes guard from it, even without a CD on guard.
Such a huge cooldown just transfers the easymode from the tank to the enemy DDs.

I'd rather see that the guardbuff is not a single buff, but has several stacks.
When the tank switches guard to another target, it gets 25% protection at the beginning with an increase of 5% per additional stack up to 50%; every second one stack is added, so that after 6 seconds it has the full 50% protection.
Stacks are lost completely on guard switch and begin to tick again on the new target ofc.
Numbers need to be balanced, could be also 20% initial protection with +10% per second for a higher impact in the moment of the switch, but faster regen to 50% etc. pp.

Guard should be balanced without weakening the base role of tanks (protection/support).

How about a 5 sec CD on Guard? We can atleast try it out for awhile.

When would the CD start as this is a toggel abillity. After aplying it or after it's removed???

I think a small cooldown every time you use the ability (press the button) would be interesting. But Im extremely biased because i hate guard with all my heart and soul. (50% dmg reduction *grumble intensifies.)

[Shanell]

Guard is OP
Muh 50% dmg!1 you have punts and snares. You are dealing damage to a tank by hitting squishy enemy. What else do you need?
Cleanse is OP.
As a magus I am totally ok with that. I've got AoE dots and wp have AoE cleanse. I can spam it - he can't

Are we playing the same game? It was so for all time AoR existed and changing it now is not needed at all. Well maybe it's needed in case you are going to create a SC roaming party and kill pugs with 25% damage mitigation.
I don't see here are good suggestions at all.
I need the "do not touch anything" option.

[roadkillrobin]

I have a guard sugestion

Chosen/Kotbs: Have passive and static buffs no other tank have that kinda reliabillity. Change guard into: Undefendble Melee attack procs the guard buff on defensive target for 30seconds, 25 sec CD

BG/IB:Whever you or your Oathfriend/Dark Protector takes damage 50% Chancee to proc guard buff for 5 seconds.

SM/BO Same as current one but a 25/75 split. Whenever one of your warbellows/blade enchants trigger buffs become 50/50 split.

[Luth]

Spoiler:

I have a guard sugestion

Chosen/Kotbs: Have passive and static buffs no other tank have that kinda reliabillity. Change guard into: Undefendble Melee attack procs the guard buff on defensive target for 30seconds, 25 sec CD

BG/IB:Whever you or your Oathfriend/Dark Protector takes damage 50% Chancee to proc guard buff for 5 seconds.

SM/BO Same as current one but a 25/75 split. Whenever one of your warbellows/blade enchants trigger buffs become 50/50 split.

As already stated by azarael, the game has enough RNG. At the moment proper guard switching requires a minimum of player-skill and i think that's a good thing.
Imo massive PvP games need some RNG to work though, as for instance active blocking/defending works only on small scale; see: TESOs crappy implementation of blocking.

The RNG we have atm allows the player to concentrate on different stuff in a larger PvP environment; active guard switching or generally protecting others is one of these.
I think a passive guard proc would only make PvP tanking boring and is not needed.

[Luth]

It was so for all time AoR existed and changing it now is not needed at all.

Maybe the guard discussion should be continued in the balance subforum.

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

I have a guard sugestion

Chosen/Kotbs: Have passive and static buffs no other tank have that kinda reliabillity. Change guard into: Undefendble Melee attack procs the guard buff on defensive target for 30seconds, 25 sec CD

BG/IB:Whever you or your Oathfriend/Dark Protector takes damage 50% Chancee to proc guard buff for 5 seconds.

SM/BO Same as current one but a 25/75 split. Whenever one of your warbellows/blade enchants trigger buffs become 50/50 split.

As already stated by azarael, the game has enough RNG. At the moment proper guard switching requires a minimum of player-skill and i think that's a good thing.
Imo massive PvP games need some RNG to work though, as for instance active blocking/defending works only on small scale; see: TESOs crappy implementation of blocking.

The RNG we have atm allows the player to concentrate on different stuff in a larger PvP environment; active guard switching or generally protecting others is one of these.
I think a passive guard proc would only make PvP tanking boring and is not needed.

lol what RNG, SM/BO is 25% static, BG/IB is basicly 100% only nerf would be for Chosen/Kotbs who would need to get into melee range to activate it. But considering they don't need to hit **** to proc their buff like all other tanks they can have it tbh.

[Lileldys]

Guard is fine, a group can win vs higher numbers by proper use of game mechanics. I see nothing wrong here. Guard doesn't make you invincible. The other sides inability to use /assist makes you invincible with guard+2heals.

You can't really nerf a core skill of all tanks, which is one of the reasons they are actually played, unlike certain other MMO PvP games, where the tanks become flag runners and point holders....

Tanks are the strongest part of a group, and a poor tank player will get your group wiped.