Poll: BOs and SMs

[Penril]

and i wish that choppas had good aoe and wernt forced to be st unlike slayers who can do both

... really man?

Go make your own Choppa/Slayer poll

[Coryphaus]

and i wish that choppas had good aoe and wernt forced to be st unlike slayers who can do both

... really man?

Go make your own Choppa/Slayer poll

any way what about that grp armor buff from 1.49? though i dont know how good it would be considering late game armor levels and armor tallis

also think that putting the armor buff on tuffer n nails would make we iz bigger redundant

Another suggestion i can come up with is that without tb bws are gonna hit harder than ever, make Rock Ard a grp affect much like doks absorb shield

this combined with savin my hide can give counterplay to late game magical dmg


Grp armor buff and grp magical shield can be considered on anthretic armor (or crushing advance) and PoH respectively

[Genisaurus]

I voted for "Other:"

I think that in general, any of the above abilities would be fine. However, I don't think any one change is going to be enough. Moreover, I harbor a concern that making changes incrementally will impair the ability to judge balance over the long term. I personally (and unofficially) am of the opinion that BO's and SM's need several things changed, and those changes should happen all at once, so that we as players can get a good idea of what we are really judging when we discuss their balance.

What those changes are can be discussed, but that should be a long discussion with a wide consensus before implementing. I imagine something like a budget, where people put forward proposals for larger changes, and we vote on individual proposals in a formal manner.

Well this is new to me.

I always thought classes would pretty much stay as close to 1.4.8 as possible, with maybe one or two tweaks to certain "useless" skills/tactics. Reading that one of our Devs (besides Aza) agrees BOs/SMs need several things changed is really nice.

If that is the approach you guys are taking, then i agree that nothing should be changed for now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not speaking in any kind of an official capacity, and I hope I made that clear enough. I have not been involved in any sort of internal (or, really, external) discussions on balance, at least not yet. I would like to see these things happen, and to be a part of those changes, but that's something for the future. AFAIK the plan is still to get T4 implemented at least to RR80, then look at things again. with the exception of obvious and simple changes that nobody disagrees with and don't change the big picture too much, like the recent changes to BO/SM.

I'm also a little biased. I played a SM throughout my entire career in the game, at first because I thought they looked good, and the specifically because they were "sub-optimal;" I like a challenge. I thought I knew the class well enough to know exactly what changes they need, but then I started playing a BO and realized how absolutely different the two classes are. Getting the two balanced and equal is going to be a huge headache:

1. SMs do almost entirely spirit damage, whereas BOs do physical.
   1. SMs don't need Weapon Skill on their itemization, whereas BOs do.
   2. SMs are always going to be the better DPS class between the two
   3. SMs are equally effective against all targets, BOs are less useful vs. Heavy and Medium armor targets (in a purely DPS capacity).
2. The utilities they share are in different abilities, in different trees.
3. Many of the BOs utilities affect their defensive target, letting them have some use out-of-group. SMs lack those abilities altogether.

So, big picture, what do you do? Giving both classes any single ability is going to impact them very differently, and no one ability will be enough.

[Azuzu]

So, big picture, what do you do? Giving both classes any single ability is going to impact them very differently, and no one ability will be enough.

I think people are looking for one BIG ability, an almost must have for a group. An ability that will make you question taking a BO/SM instead of Chosen/KotBS or BG/IB.

Something like I suggested, an ability that decreases crit dmg of enemies and increases crit dmg of allies. Without TB in the game that would be huge.

I feel tho, if you make BO/SM too good, the problem is BG/IB will become the new BO/SM and the meta will become, KotBS + SM and Chosen + BO.

[Penril]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not speaking in any kind of an official capacity, and I hope I made that clear enough.

I know it is not official. You were perfectly clear, don't worry

I'm also a little biased. I played a SM throughout my entire career in the game, at first because I thought they looked good, and the specifically because they were "sub-optimal;" I like a challenge. I thought I knew the class well enough to know exactly what changes they need, but then I started playing a BO and realized how absolutely different the two classes are. Getting the two balanced and equal is going to be a huge headache:

Funny. I am doing the same but started with BO on live and now trying SM in RoR.

1. SMs do almost entirely spirit damage, whereas BOs do physical. Correct.
   1. SMs don't need Weapon Skill on their itemization, whereas BOs do. Correct.
   2. SMs are always going to be the better DPS class between the two Disagree.
   3. SMs are equally effective against all targets, BOs are less useful vs. Heavy and Medium armor targets (in a purely DPS capacity).Correct
2. The utilities they share are in different abilities, in different trees.
3. Many of the BOs utilities affect their defensive target, letting them have some use out-of-group. SMs lack those abilities altogether.Can only think of Follow my Lead

So, big picture, what do you do? Giving both classes any single ability is going to impact them very differently, and no one ability will be enough.

I disagree with SMs being better DPS than BOs. Yes, they will hit medium and heavy armor classes harder due to their spirit damage. But then again, heavy armor classes are the last ones you attack. You go for squishies first. Armor debuff an AM, buff the BOs WS, and land a 4k+ SYF crit (thanks to SYG and CYHMN). He will explode. Even without CYHMN you will still hit pretty hard with either THC, NiDF or DYG.

[feefy1]

Spoiler:

I voted for "Other:"

I think that in general, any of the above abilities would be fine. However, I don't think any one change is going to be enough. Moreover, I harbor a concern that making changes incrementally will impair the ability to judge balance over the long term. I personally (and unofficially) am of the opinion that BO's and SM's need several things changed, and those changes should happen all at once, so that we as players can get a good idea of what we are really judging when we discuss their balance.

What those changes are can be discussed, but that should be a long discussion with a wide consensus before implementing. I imagine something like a budget, where people put forward proposals for larger changes, and we vote on individual proposals in a formal manner.

Well this is new to me.

I always thought classes would pretty much stay as close to 1.4.8 as possible, with maybe one or two tweaks to certain "useless" skills/tactics. Reading that one of our Devs (besides Aza) agrees BOs/SMs need several things changed is really nice.

If that is the approach you guys are taking, then i agree that nothing should be changed for now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not speaking in any kind of an official capacity, and I hope I made that clear enough. I have not been involved in any sort of internal (or, really, external) discussions on balance, at least not yet. I would like to see these things happen, and to be a part of those changes, but that's something for the future. AFAIK the plan is still to get T4 implemented at least to RR80, then look at things again. with the exception of obvious and simple changes that nobody disagrees with and don't change the big picture too much, like the recent changes to BO/SM.

I'm also a little biased. I played a SM throughout my entire career in the game, at first because I thought they looked good, and the specifically because they were "sub-optimal;" I like a challenge. I thought I knew the class well enough to know exactly what changes they need, but then I started playing a BO and realized how absolutely different the two classes are. Getting the two balanced and equal is going to be a huge headache:

1. SMs do almost entirely spirit damage, whereas BOs do physical.
   1. SMs don't need Weapon Skill on their itemization, whereas BOs do.
   2. SMs are always going to be the better DPS class between the two
   3. SMs are equally effective against all targets, BOs are less useful vs. Heavy and Medium armor targets (in a purely DPS capacity).
2. The utilities they share are in different abilities, in different trees.
3. Many of the BOs utilities affect their defensive target, letting them have some use out-of-group. SMs lack those abilities altogether.

So, big picture, what do you do? Giving both classes any single ability is going to impact them very differently, and no one ability will be enough.

As I see it, the SM can be built a defensive 2handed tank. I'm not sure about the BO.
I also voted for other on the poll.

Perhaps phantom blade/da toughest can be made to proc group bubble of some sort with some icd. Of course these are short term improvements, in t4 meta this would have to be revisited.

Your thoughts of implementing all changes at once are great, if we reach a consensus vote of what/when they can be made.

[Coryphaus]

I feel tho, if you make BO/SM too good, the problem is BG/IB will become the new BO/SM and the meta will become, KotBS + SM and Chosen + BO.

Lol no BG and IB espically are great tanks that your not just gonna be like "welp these guys are **** now"

bringign these classes into the meta can be done in a variety of ways including changing other parts of the game such as changing other classes like nerfing slayers so that ordo 6 mans arent x2 slayers so that you cn pick say wh or wl and wl pairs very well with sm cause of spirit dmg

[Azuzu]

I feel tho, if you make BO/SM too good, the problem is BG/IB will become the new BO/SM and the meta will become, KotBS + SM and Chosen + BO.

Lol no BG and IB espically are great tanks that your not just gonna be like "welp these guys are **** now"

I wasn't implying they would be ****. I'm saying out of the 3 tanks on each side. I think endgame wise, the conversation would becomes do we take a Chosen/KotBS + IB or SM/BG or BO. I think Chosen/KotBS position in groups would stay safe.

[Genisaurus]

...
Many of the BOs utilities affect their defensive target, letting them have some use out-of-group. SMs lack those abilities altogether.Can only think of Follow my Lead

I disagree with SMs being better DPS than BOs. Yes, they will hit medium and heavy armor classes harder due to their spirit damage. But then again, heavy armor classes are the last ones you attack. You go for squishies first. Armor debuff an AM, buff the BOs WS, and land a 4k+ SYF crit (thanks to SYG). He will explode.

Yeah, you're right, I'm still confusing a lot of the BO's party buffs for defensive target buffs. Follow me Lead is the only DT buff they have. My mistake.

And you may be right about the DPS, but where BOs have an armor debuff, SMs have two resist debuffs, which if I remember correctly, stacked.

[Penril]

...
Many of the BOs utilities affect their defensive target, letting them have some use out-of-group. SMs lack those abilities altogether.Can only think of Follow my Lead

I disagree with SMs being better DPS than BOs. Yes, they will hit medium and heavy armor classes harder due to their spirit damage. But then again, heavy armor classes are the last ones you attack. You go for squishies first. Armor debuff an AM, buff the BOs WS, and land a 4k+ SYF crit (thanks to SYG). He will explode.

Yeah, you're right, I'm still confusing a lot of the BO's party buffs for defensive target buffs. Follow me Lead is the only DT buff they have. My mistake.

And you may be right about the DPS, but where BOs have an armor debuff, SMs have two resist debuffs, which if I remember correctly, stacked.

I was thinking about a Mara armor debuff

After a NCM double WS buff and other procs, this is what i was able to get (left is unbuffed, right is after buffs and procs):



Now picture hitting an AM that is armor-debuffed by a Mara, while you have 70% armor penetration.

SMs resist should stack since one debuffs All resists, but the other one debuffs Spirit specifically (so basically 2 different debuffs; they stacked on Live). So yes, once both debuffs are stacked SMs can hit pretty hard. But i believe a BO will still have more burst against squishies because of the things i already explained.