Return of Reckoning

lemao wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 5:08 am

Zxul wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2024 9:22 pm

lemao wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2024 7:28 pm

Horrible argument .How am I going to be successful on my magus in group ranked ? Or let´s say any composition which is not suited for it ?
Already missing 1 important class like a rp or zealot heavily hinders your team.

Enlighten me, what is the difference fighting premade vs premade, in ranked vs in regular sc? Unless the intention is fighting the pug and not the premades in regular scs, that is.

Sure.
In regular scs you have minimum of 12 players (sometimes even 18 man scs) where non meta 6v6 classes are viable (i.e. mostly ranged classes)
These classes have no presence in strict 6v6 group ranked scs because meele is heavily favored there, It does not make a huge difference when you are missing a key class like like a zealot or rp in regular scs with more poeple. In group ranked it does.

So in other words what you are saying is that melee groups are still better in regular scs, but magus can work assuming the opposition is not in optimized setup (=pug)?

ranged have absolute advantage in normal scs, easier to farm kills, easier to dodge fights, solo or grped. situation is exceptionally bad since the choppa/SL nerfs.

Zxul wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:05 pm

lemao wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 5:08 am

Zxul wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2024 9:22 pm

Enlighten me, what is the difference fighting premade vs premade, in ranked vs in regular sc? Unless the intention is fighting the pug and not the premades in regular scs, that is.

Sure.
In regular scs you have minimum of 12 players (sometimes even 18 man scs) where non meta 6v6 classes are viable (i.e. mostly ranged classes)
These classes have no presence in strict 6v6 group ranked scs because meele is heavily favored there, It does not make a huge difference when you are missing a key class like like a zealot or rp in regular scs with more poeple. In group ranked it does.

So in other words what you are saying is that melee groups are still better in regular scs, but magus can work assuming the opposition is not in optimized setup (=pug)?

Nothing to do with pugs, two premades can have different setups that may have advantages over another and these premades are not all optimized, discord using machines you and otheres are constantly trying to imply.

If people can't understand the core mechanic of the different gamemodes, they should stop suggesting things how these modes should work.

A group formed in lfg chat with no discord will having a hard time fighting 6 people playing together for years, are optimized gear and setups wise and are focused on communication and timing. While in ranked 6v6, these differences are critical, normal SCs are an equalizer, while one group may be in better shape then the enemy, there is always a second or third group, the idea is to balance each other out.

Solos constantly crying about solo game modes but they are not using the ones already in this game. You have total flexability, how you want to play, there are two game modes for solo, and two for group game, feel free to join whereever you want.

The gamemodes are already there, you just want more rewards for nothing.

Everdin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:36 pm

Zxul wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:05 pm

lemao wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 5:08 am

Sure.
In regular scs you have minimum of 12 players (sometimes even 18 man scs) where non meta 6v6 classes are viable (i.e. mostly ranged classes)
These classes have no presence in strict 6v6 group ranked scs because meele is heavily favored there, It does not make a huge difference when you are missing a key class like like a zealot or rp in regular scs with more poeple. In group ranked it does.

So in other words what you are saying is that melee groups are still better in regular scs, but magus can work assuming the opposition is not in optimized setup (=pug)?

Nothing to do with pugs, two premades can have different setups that may have advantages over another and these premades are not all optimized, discord using machines you and otheres are constantly trying to imply.

If people can't understand the core mechanic of the different gamemodes, they should stop suggesting things how these modes should work.

A group formed in lfg chat with no discord will having a hard time fighting 6 people playing together for years, are optimized gear and setups wise and are focused on communication and timing. While in ranked 6v6, these differences are critical, normal SCs are an equalizer, while one group may be in better shape then the enemy, there is always a second or third group, the idea is to balance each other out.

Solos constantly crying about solo game modes but they are not using the ones already in this game. You have total flexability, how you want to play, there are two game modes for solo, and two for group game, feel free to join whereever you want.

The gamemodes are already there, you just want more rewards for nothing.

So in other words what you are saying is that melee groups are still better in regular scs, but non optimized can work assuming the opposition is not in optimized setup (=pug most likely)?

Zxul wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:59 pm

Everdin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:36 pm

Zxul wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:05 pm

So in other words what you are saying is that melee groups are still better in regular scs, but magus can work assuming the opposition is not in optimized setup (=pug)?

Nothing to do with pugs, two premades can have different setups that may have advantages over another and these premades are not all optimized, discord using machines you and otheres are constantly trying to imply.

If people can't understand the core mechanic of the different gamemodes, they should stop suggesting things how these modes should work.

A group formed in lfg chat with no discord will having a hard time fighting 6 people playing together for years, are optimized gear and setups wise and are focused on communication and timing. While in ranked 6v6, these differences are critical, normal SCs are an equalizer, while one group may be in better shape then the enemy, there is always a second or third group, the idea is to balance each other out.

Solos constantly crying about solo game modes but they are not using the ones already in this game. You have total flexability, how you want to play, there are two game modes for solo, and two for group game, feel free to join whereever you want.

The gamemodes are already there, you just want more rewards for nothing.

So in other words what you are saying is that melee groups are still better in regular scs, but non optimized can work assuming the opposition is not in optimized setup (=pug most likely)?

Seems like drastic immunity to arguments

Everdin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 7:28 pm

Zxul wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:59 pm

Everdin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:36 pm

Nothing to do with pugs, two premades can have different setups that may have advantages over another and these premades are not all optimized, discord using machines you and otheres are constantly trying to imply.

If people can't understand the core mechanic of the different gamemodes, they should stop suggesting things how these modes should work.

A group formed in lfg chat with no discord will having a hard time fighting 6 people playing together for years, are optimized gear and setups wise and are focused on communication and timing. While in ranked 6v6, these differences are critical, normal SCs are an equalizer, while one group may be in better shape then the enemy, there is always a second or third group, the idea is to balance each other out.

Solos constantly crying about solo game modes but they are not using the ones already in this game. You have total flexability, how you want to play, there are two game modes for solo, and two for group game, feel free to join whereever you want.

The gamemodes are already there, you just want more rewards for nothing.

So in other words what you are saying is that melee groups are still better in regular scs, but non optimized can work assuming the opposition is not in optimized setup (=pug most likely)?

Seems like drastic immunity to arguments

What arguments exactly do I need, when that long post of yours didn't address what I originally said?

You are lost If you think there ist nothing between 100% optimized groups and pugs. Thats exactly what I am addressing

If all pre-made groups are Qing ranked then you will hit non optimised groups in a ranked q.

When pre-mades don’t q ranked at all because they have less than perfect set up that is a part of what makes ranked so hard.

Anyway I understand where you are both coming from, currently Group Ranked is too scary for people to q, and discordant is not as functional (regularly imbalanced fights and very low pops) as it should be. That leaves everyone Qing general scenarios.

What would make you take your pre-made into ranked with a sub optimal setup? @Everdin

With very little thought, maybe equal rewards for winning and losing… most super competitive players are not in it for the gear, they are there to brag (already fully geared) but if you could get insignias quick by q’ing with sub optimal groups maybe more would q and it would be an actually functional q. You would just know you might hit a full discord super sweaty pre-made who was dead keen to farm you till their fingers bled. But although it was -2 to your k/d you still got your insignias just for turning up.

Allonairre wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 10:29 pm If all pre-made groups are Qing ranked then you will hit non optimised groups in a ranked q.

When pre-mades don’t q ranked at all because they have less than perfect set up that is a part of what makes ranked so hard.

Anyway I understand where you are both coming from, currently Group Ranked is too scary for people to q, and discordant is not as functional (regularly imbalanced fights and very low pops) as it should be. That leaves everyone Qing general scenarios.

What would make you take your pre-made into ranked with a sub optimal setup? @Everdin

With very little thought, maybe equal rewards for winning and losing… most super competitive players are not in it for the gear, they are there to brag (already fully geared) but if you could get insignias quick by q’ing with sub optimal groups maybe more would q and it would be an actually functional q. You would just know you might hit a full discord super sweaty pre-made who was dead keen to farm you till their fingers bled. But although it was -2 to your k/d you still got your insignias just for turning up.

The problem is not the numbers of groups queing, but the predetermined outcome, let's put int in tiers:

S Tier group, playing together for years, minmaxed gear, minmaxed setup, minmaxed sleepschedule and named their kids after each other

A Tier, find each other, got in one guild, playing 1-2 times a week just for fun, guild discord

B Tier, just put together quickly in /lfg, no discord, guardswitch is more luck then the rule

in Ranked you have 6v6,S Tier Group >A Tier Group > B Tier Group , will always be if not both healers from the better group get a disconnect

In normal Sc you have 12, 18 or 24 man, you will have S & B vs 2x A sometimes S and A vs B and A, sometimes you will have 2xb vs Group S and a few smallman, it's regulating (sure, maybe you have bad luck and play with 2x A Tier vs 2x B Tier, but there are always chances you will matched more to your favor.

If you would force all groups to ranked, you would loose all B Tier Groups, cause they would never stand a chance against the others.

On top of that, pushing everything in strict 6v6 you would throw all smallman under the bus, scs just wouldn't pop for a 4 man as long as there is no 2 man group.

To answer your question, at the current state I would not play ranked with a not well equipt char, or with a class thats not viable. But I don't force this on others, I simply would not like to pull the group down. In a normal sc you can bring a rank 50 char with pve gear and get something done, you can bring your magus/engi, you can bring the new guy from your guild, whatever, chances are high there will be a few good sc on an evening.

What would stop a solo player to go for solo ranked or discordant to get it's full solo experience? Solo ranked is fully balanced with healers, tanks, even realm barriers are not there. Why forcing groups of all kind from 2-6man into a game mode that just don't fit and would cause a lot of problems? Solos have the choice of playing 3 Kinds of SC, if they choose normal sc, well, it's THEIR choice, there are no premades forcing them into it.

Edit: Regarding "take your pre-made into ranked", I have no premade, most of the time we fall in the category that won't get a pop in the mentioned system cause 2-5 man or solo.

Everdin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 8:47 pm You are lost If you think there ist nothing between 100% optimized groups and pugs. Thats exactly what I am addressing

No, you are missing what I'm saying, again. You bringing magus or other unoptimized class to regular scs is based on- per your words- counting on the opposition having unoptimized classes/ bad builds/ under equipped toons, which is what requires it to work, since if you are actually facing 3 x 6man melee premades magus won't work. In other words, we are back to you looking to fight unoptimized classes/ bad builds/ under equipped toons, in other words to fight pug.