Return of Reckoning

anarchypark wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 3:38 pm

Scottx125 wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:55 pm

IMO, front melee line is most important in any battle, any scale.
and grace add 1 more body to it.
same time supporting that front.
this alone worth than salv.

when enemy focus on you and survive long enough, it means enemy wasted dps.
your slight better tanky and ok healing make difference.

salv only perform healing.
grace do all 3, weaker than proper classes.
when performed well team got each added role.
jack of all trade.

I don't want OP class, that's all.
any more is OP. less healing is out of option for healer.
maybe less dps but same heal. but how? any idea?

Grace does less healing than Salvation. Less damage than most tanks and is weaker than most tanks. What exactly is Grace bringing to the table?

Scottx125 wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:12 pm

anarchypark wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 3:38 pm

Scottx125 wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:55 pm

IMO, front melee line is most important in any battle, any scale.
and grace add 1 more body to it.
same time supporting that front.
this alone worth than salv.

when enemy focus on you and survive long enough, it means enemy wasted dps.
your slight better tanky and ok healing make difference.

salv only perform healing.
grace do all 3, weaker than proper classes.
when performed well team got each added role.
jack of all trade.

I don't want OP class, that's all.
any more is OP. less healing is out of option for healer.
maybe less dps but same heal. but how? any idea?

Grace does less healing than Salvation. Less damage than most tanks and is weaker than most tanks. What exactly is Grace bringing to the table?

^ def a grace player

Scottx125 wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:12 pm
Grace does less healing than Salvation. Less damage than most tanks and is weaker than most tanks. What exactly is Grace bringing to the table?

Jack of all trades
healing, dps, survival altogether.
in a flow of battle, there's time when team need slight more dps, more healing or more meatshield, in different moment.
you read that timing and fill the needed support.

dps tanks are half dps, half tank.
consider grace 0.3 / 0.3 / 0.3 healer achetype.
when you play like only 1 type, you're performing only 0.3 ~ 0.5 of pure class.
switch role perspective constantly, like stance dance.

forget about scoreboard numbers.
timing ( when to push, when to disengage, when to burst heal ) are more important.

It has weakness and counter. need full support.
choppa/slayer need supports too. it doesn't mean they're weak. same on grace.

anarchypark wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:57 am

Scottx125 wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:12 pm
Grace does less healing than Salvation. Less damage than most tanks and is weaker than most tanks. What exactly is Grace bringing to the table?

Jack of all trades
healing, dps, survival altogether.
in a flow of battle, there's time when team need slight more dps, more healing or more meatshield, in different moment.
you read that timing and fill the needed support.

dps tanks are half dps, half tank.
consider grace 0.3 / 0.3 / 0.3 healer achetype.
when you play like only 1 type, you're performing only 0.3 ~ 0.5 of pure class.
switch role perspective constantly, like stance dance.

forget about scoreboard numbers.
timing ( when to push, when to disengage, when to burst heal ) are more important.

It has weakness and counter. need full support.
choppa/slayer need supports too. it doesn't mean they're weak. same on grace.

And again. Why does anyone want a class that only performs 0.3x as well in it's specific role in the moment? They'd rather have a 2x2x2 format of tanks, dps and healers. If you go that same formation with a Grace WP. That WP is then filling in that spot because you either lose 1 healer (another guard for tanks to juggle and you have to focus on healing), 1 DPS (you will have to focus on DPS and as a Grace WP you'll NEVER get anywhere close to dealing half as much damage as true DPS deal) or tank (You don't have a guard, so you're not a tank). Grace is NOT a jack of all trades. It's a healer spec focused on healing through melee combat. My point, is as a heal spec, you don't do as much healing as the main heal WP spec to be worth having in a group. You don't do enough damage to be worth replacing a DPS unless you go Wrath and you're not a tank because you don't have guard. And yes as I've said you're more survivable because you have a shield. But that's completely negated by the fact that you're on the frontlines taking damage directly sometimes without a guard. Salv healers aren't in the direct fighting, sure they're closer to the front compared with other healers but they're behind the tanks and dps avoiding a lot of damage, that MASSIVELY helps with their survivability.

The problem with Grace is that your group needs to conform to your needs to make it viable. That shouldn't be the case, Grace should bring something good to the table to offer the group. Now I agree Grace could potentially be a 33/33/33 split. But atm. It's healing is less than salv prob by 10-20% and it's damage compared with other DPS is probably 10-20%, it's not worth talking about. Unless you go full DPS on a Grace WP which is a bad move because you're gonna melt fast.

Scottx125 wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:40 am

I might forgot mentioning synergy of each 0.3
my english is not enough to explain better.
I'll describe by example.

At initial engagement,
position 1 step behind tank.
target mdps and start self buff attacks.
if none mdps nearby, pick tank.
block/parry/str/tough buffs asap.
Next, start 2 spam melee heals, assisting target.
if snared, pick closest target, tank or whatever, no downtime.
keep moving and try assist, non stop melee heal.
so far 3 roles simultaneously.

until get stun and focused fire.
hope your team able to save you for 3sec.
0.3 tank role helps at this time. but it's more about your tank and heal team help. while 2 dps team free.

after getup heal proc and channel burst heal.
it's actually best burst heal in the game imo.
if you picked right target...
high chance one of squishy nearby, to stun assist.
this time tank/heal role.

refill resources, assisting, positioning.
dps/heal role.

tbh, it's hard to distinguish each role by text.
whenever you get attacked you're tanky.
whenever you assist it's heal and dps.

I guess we're talking about same thing.
only, you see lacks compared to pure classes.
I see opportunities it supports, probably unknowingly to most.

anarchypark wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:39 pm

Spoiler:

I might forgot mentioning synergy of each 0.3
my english is not enough to explain better.
I'll describe by example.

At initial engagement,
position 1 step behind tank.
target mdps and start self buff attacks.
if none mdps nearby, pick tank.
block/parry/str/tough buffs asap.
Next, start 2 spam melee heals, assisting target.
if snared, pick closest target, tank or whatever, no downtime.
keep moving and try assist, non stop melee heal.
so far 3 roles simultaneously.

until get stun and focused fire.
hope your team able to save you for 3sec.
0.3 tank role helps at this time. but it's more about your tank and heal team help. while 2 dps team free.

after getup heal proc and channel burst heal.
it's actually best burst heal in the game imo.
if you picked right target...
high chance one of squishy nearby, to stun assist.
this time tank/heal role.

refill resources, assisting, positioning.
dps/heal role.

tbh, it's hard to distinguish each role by text.
whenever you get attacked you're tanky.
whenever you assist it's heal and dps.

I guess we're talking about same thing.
only, you see lacks compared to pure classes.
I see opportunities it supports, probably unknowingly to most.

I see what you're saying, I disagree generally. You say jack of all trades, I say master of none . Unfortunately, with any built squad you want people who are top spec in their class. That doesn't leave room for a support class that isn't amazing at any one thing. You want your tanks to be tanky, you want your DPS to hit hard and you want your healers to heal a lot and survive. Grace doesn't really sit in any of those positions and removing one of them is generally a detriment.

SKILLS of Vermintide 2 can be a guide for Grace's change.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2664977356

Adding more CC and tankiness also lowering the dps of grace should be a nice change.

Career Orientation
A melee frontline with consistent team buff and strong support skills.

Pros: High tankiness. Has access to a lot of strong crowd control weapons. Has good damage against armoured elites. Well-used career skill has both high offensive and defensive potential.
Cons: Low burst damage, fairly low DPS ceiling, low mobility, extremely vulnerable to specials.


Shield of Faith:

Saltzpyre imbues himself or an ally with a shield, rendering them immune to damage for 5 seconds. Upon expiring, the shield explodes, inflicting damage on nearby enemies

This skill is so op but just the function of being immune to damage for 5 seconds will be better.