Return of Reckoning

I'll get straight to the point. I have a SM alt that I play sometimes when my guild wants order.

ATM the SM is WAY more fun to play, has way more tools, and feels like it has way more impact than the BO.. This is an empirical observation from playing both classes post nerf..

The BO feels slow and lacking in options and utility.

The SM flies around the map (at least the way i play it. juggernaut reduced to 20 sec CD with CD means i can break snares every 15 seconds plus M1 Heavens Wings.) buffing group mates with CDR and pumping out mass protection with the group shield on CDR which does blocks 800 dmg in conq..

My BO group shield blocks 500 dmg in BiS SnB..

The SM is just WAY more fun ATM

Duukar wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 10:20 pm The SM flies around the map (at least the way i play it. juggernaut reduced to 20 sec CD with CD means i can break snares every 15 seconds plus M1 Heavens Wings.) buffing group mates with CDR and pumping out mass protection with the group shield on CDR which does blocks 800 dmg in conq..

Both tanks have the unstoppable juggernaut tactic if that's what you mean, having it on 20 seconds CD is still relatively quick. The range on Wings of Heaven was heavily nerfed so it's not as fun as it use to be. The BO's bubble offers less absorb protection but it has a bigger range than the SM's version. If you really rely on CDR's just pair up with a Choppa for now. IBs have generally always had to pair up with Slayers to get the most out of their buffs, SMs with SWs, Knights with BWs etc...

detrap wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 11:25 pm

Duukar wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 10:20 pm The SM flies around the map (at least the way i play it. juggernaut reduced to 20 sec CD with CD means i can break snares every 15 seconds plus M1 Heavens Wings.) buffing group mates with CDR and pumping out mass protection with the group shield on CDR which does blocks 800 dmg in conq..

Both tanks have the unstoppable juggernaut tactic if that's what you mean, having it on 20 seconds CD is still relatively quick. The range on Wings of Heaven was heavily nerfed so it's not as fun as it use to be. The BO's bubble offers less absorb protection but it has a bigger range than the SM's version. If you really rely on CDR's just pair up with a Choppa for now. IBs have generally always had to pair up with Slayers to get the most out of their buffs, SMs with SWs, Knights with BWs etc...

Look. It’s just more fun. It is.

Why are you bothering to try to counter everything I’m saying in my threads?

The range on the M1 was nerfed? Big deal. It was a huge buff to move it to M1. Options including bellow opened up.

M1 paired with CDR juggernaut is a great combo in ORvR and SCs and there is an extra tactic slot available. Mobility is amazing and chasing and penetration on pushes. Guarding a ASW is easier and lots of fun. What destro tanks can keep up with MSH?

Two aoe interrupts for big impact on WB play. a strong shield for those actually in danger with CDR. 20% dmg reduction in aoe. debuffing spirit dmg in aoe for the WB.

All that literally in addition to every piece of kits the Blork has minus M3 (ever hear of Raze) and the 50% block buff and WS buff. Impact on impact on impact while doing everything a Blork can.

Fun!

Since the removal of thc in snb SM has been more fun in snb imo, before and after last patch. With 2h, the optics alone make BO more fun.

Duukar wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:14 am

Spoiler:

detrap wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 11:25 pm

Duukar wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 10:20 pm The SM flies around the map (at least the way i play it. juggernaut reduced to 20 sec CD with CD means i can break snares every 15 seconds plus M1 Heavens Wings.) buffing group mates with CDR and pumping out mass protection with the group shield on CDR which does blocks 800 dmg in conq..

Both tanks have the unstoppable juggernaut tactic if that's what you mean, having it on 20 seconds CD is still relatively quick. The range on Wings of Heaven was heavily nerfed so it's not as fun as it use to be. The BO's bubble offers less absorb protection but it has a bigger range than the SM's version. If you really rely on CDR's just pair up with a Choppa for now. IBs have generally always had to pair up with Slayers to get the most out of their buffs, SMs with SWs, Knights with BWs etc...

Look. It’s just more fun. It is.

Why are you bothering to try to counter everything I’m saying in my threads?

The range on the M1 was nerfed? Big deal. It was a huge buff to move it to M1. Options including bellow opened up.

M1 paired with CDR juggernaut is a great combo in ORvR and SCs and there is an extra tactic slot available. Mobility is amazing and chasing and penetration on pushes. Guarding a ASW is easier and lots of fun. What destro tanks can keep up with MSH?

Two aoe interrupts for big impact on WB play. a strong shield for those actually in danger with CDR. 20% dmg reduction in aoe. debuffing spirit dmg in aoe for the WB.

All that literally in addition to every piece of kits the Blork has minus M3 (ever hear of Raze) and the 50% block buff and WS buff. Impact on impact on impact while doing everything a Blork can.

Fun!

You can't use M2 if you constantly use M1. No Champion's Challenge or Demolishing Strike anymore. It's not a huge buff. I don't use Unstoppable Juggernaut tactic, I would rather run the speed proc from renown or 2H with speed proc or just flee and use an AP pot, the problem with playing against destro is that Shaman's always do a wonderful job putting snare puddles everywhere I find it a waste to use up a tactic slot when I'm instantly re-snared. Not sure how the SM 'timing' he's CDR with juggernaut is a utility meta for order warbands. Maybe it could be, haven't tested it yet.

If you're on right-click > follow, and your guard is running out of range constantly, I wouldn't say the issue is you not having 15 seconds cooldown on an break-root ability once every 20 seconds.

An AoE interrupt that is only 15ft, and a 30ft line which SM's lost a 4 second silence for which BO's still have as a core ability, plus their M3 which is the best in the game for a tank's M3 and how you could compare it to Raze? I don't know.

I've listed plenty the BO can still do over a Chosen/SM. I enjoy playing my BO because it brings a lot of powerful tools my SM doesn't have.

detrap wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 1:44 pm

Duukar wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 7:19 am

Spoiler:

Black orks have been guttted and require a complete rework.

You took WAHHGGGG away, buffed it, and gave it to SMs. Thats our mirror.

I spent 100s and 100s and 100s of hours grinding out BiS for SnB and 2h on my Blork...

It would be REALLY nice if you guys would redefine the class identity since we no longer have WAHHHHHGGGG or the best Morale pump.. What exact role should we fill in WB play or Ranked play or Small man play?

The other tanks do everything we can do, but better.

We have no LOOONNNG range punt... have fun with ranked play...
We have no CDR.... But out mirror does paired with an aoe interrupt ON DEMAND...
We have no improved morale pump.. Chosen have the same now....

We have a WS buff...

We dont have a spot in the single target group in City.. we Dont have a spot in the AoE groups in city.. 2 chosen is WAY better.. or even a chosen and a BG...
We cant excel at ranked play because we lack a reasonable punt. Small man makes WAY more sense to bring a Chosen and BG....

We need new 12 point abilities on the center and right tree.. we need to abilities in the 5 slot and the 9 slot.. really we have nothing useful anymore.. just a WS buff...

Here are some things I can think of.

BO's have a group resistance buff on being hit, SM's don't.
BO's have a silence and ST cooldown increaser, SM's don't.
BO's have the highest burst damage of all the tanks.
BO's have a AoE snare with no cooldown, SM's don't.
BO's have one of the best offensive morales for warband or small scale fights with their m3.
BO's can reduce incoming magic damage for party by hitting any target, no cooldown, SM's can't.
BO's AoE snare can increases build up time and debuffs strength all with one ability.
BO's still have a morale pump, SM's don't.
BO's can with one ability buff auto attack damage of group and have a ln AoE corporeal debuff to boost Sorc damage significantly if the targets don't have their resistances buffed.

SM's don't have a ST punt either with 2H, it has to be with a shield and requires block and is on a 20 second cooldown, and shield isn't much use for six man's. For the BO the same part of the mastery tree they get their block channel.

Hope it helps.

1. So does Zealot, Shaman, Chosen etc. etc.
2. Massive amuont of other classes has aswell and you don't rly care about it in bigger scale. Instead maybe you'd use m3 silence for BO and at same time risk give them free immunites
3. It's for being 2h, and in wb scale, you don't play 2h. It's barely useful do 2h tanks at all atm after recent changes
4. It's only 20%. Bg, SH and shaman has 40%. SM has m1 aoe snare with a leap which is massively useful since it is an m1. Along with SW ofc.
5. So does Kotbs, and a root. Yes BO m3 silence is strong, but you still use Bellow m2 beforehand or hold for m4
6. It's ST, not useful for any open rvr.
7. Chosen has same as an AURA, they basically don't need hit anything to apply it
8. That is the difference since Destro has always been the side with the moralebuild and their strenght when order at the same time always had other stronger side such as more raw dmg and heals
9. Choppas has increased autoattack to team, and again chosen has similar tool per automatic with their aura.

I don't say BO is useless, but ppl seem to talk as if BO has unique abilities to apply to their team that others can't.
The one thing that makes BO very strong imo is their Statstealer, which demands to keep up your aoe and keep hit targets. Lot's of the stats you stealing is alrdy applied by other classes.
I am not impressed by new BO changes especially when SM cheapily get WW as strong as Waaaaaaagh WITHOUT the need of applying a tactic to it.

Ofc you still can use all these tools to ensure the buildup times, the tiny snare etc etc. Ofc lot's of ppl in rvr DONT use these tools and run around more or less being meatwalls. A 20% snare is always better than no snare, but then again you got BG, and Shaman snare that are very very potent. Aswell as the 20% slowpots just to be a troll. 20% Snares ain't that impressing compared to 40%.
But why not just run double braindead chosens with 6 auras to fill all your needs?

Bo can give the WS and Toughness buff, but Toughness alrdy filled from Chosen. And the WS buff has always been there as a st. And who cares if healers of other tanks get a little WS buff? It was supereasy to apply your dps the WS buff as ST.

I would dev's to at least revrse the 3 combo on BO, take it back then to the original combo which most BO players want now since Waaaaaagh was removed. And please to those who way it was a ''Waaaaaaagh'' bot. Most tank classes are bots. SM took that spot as WW bot, Chosens/knight are aura bots, BG is snare bot, IB is ap bot. ALL tanks are more or less bots.
BO is easily now a 20% snare/builduptime, Statstealer and Absorb (Which zealot alrdy has lul) Bo.

I would recommend Bo run U wo Can't hit me, Absorb and Aoe snare. You can skip aoe snare for the st KD, but I assume a chosen or other useful player will use the st kd.
It's rly strong Bo specc atm and is fairly useful for a wb and makes you very strong. The WS buff can be applied with ST, its not hard.

I am more concerned about all those 1*^cities we having since last patch.

Although my mains are Order (WL, SM, SW) i think the treatment of the Black orc was poorly handled, happy for my SM and a deserved buff (class still got issues, 5 sec Eagle's flights duration looking at you) .

Anyways for BO the middle tree( Toughest ) and left tree (Da' Boss) are lackluster. Correct me if i'm wrong but i feel the only 13 point ability worth going for is You Wot!?! (At least SM got Ether Dance & Whispering Wind).

'No Choppin' Me '' seems very weak for a 11 point tactic, it was confirmed that the intention was to straight up nerf BO, however does this justify adding a near- pointless tactic at 11 points up in the tree? I think all classes(including BO) deserves something at least semi-good that high up in the tree, why invest points there otherwise?

New tactic is 3 point material, not 11 point cmon( probably wouldn't use at 3 point on my BO alt, BO has better tactics)

As for - Waaaaagh! . Effect is mediocre at best, imho not worth climbing the tree for(less considering a weak tactic is right under it, where is the incentive?)

Waaaaagh is Iconic in warhammer lore and at 13 points investment could be a little more worthy maybe? Just check Warhammer: Total war as reference in how you handle Waaagh! properly(beastly melee buff - late tech, no resist debuff nonsense for buffing sorcs).

Finally We'z Bigger is pretty bad, same with Vauls Tempering(SM). Imho both of these should be improved/reworked into something worthy a 13 point ability.

kirraha wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 7:56 am

Spoiler:

detrap wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 1:44 pm

Duukar wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 7:19 am

Spoiler:

Black orks have been guttted and require a complete rework.

You took WAHHGGGG away, buffed it, and gave it to SMs. Thats our mirror.

I spent 100s and 100s and 100s of hours grinding out BiS for SnB and 2h on my Blork...

It would be REALLY nice if you guys would redefine the class identity since we no longer have WAHHHHHGGGG or the best Morale pump.. What exact role should we fill in WB play or Ranked play or Small man play?

The other tanks do everything we can do, but better.

We have no LOOONNNG range punt... have fun with ranked play...
We have no CDR.... But out mirror does paired with an aoe interrupt ON DEMAND...
We have no improved morale pump.. Chosen have the same now....

We have a WS buff...

We dont have a spot in the single target group in City.. we Dont have a spot in the AoE groups in city.. 2 chosen is WAY better.. or even a chosen and a BG...
We cant excel at ranked play because we lack a reasonable punt. Small man makes WAY more sense to bring a Chosen and BG....

We need new 12 point abilities on the center and right tree.. we need to abilities in the 5 slot and the 9 slot.. really we have nothing useful anymore.. just a WS buff...

Here are some things I can think of.

BO's have a group resistance buff on being hit, SM's don't.
BO's have a silence and ST cooldown increaser, SM's don't.
BO's have the highest burst damage of all the tanks.
BO's have a AoE snare with no cooldown, SM's don't.
BO's have one of the best offensive morales for warband or small scale fights with their m3.
BO's can reduce incoming magic damage for party by hitting any target, no cooldown, SM's can't.
BO's AoE snare can increases build up time and debuffs strength all with one ability.
BO's still have a morale pump, SM's don't.
BO's can with one ability buff auto attack damage of group and have a ln AoE corporeal debuff to boost Sorc damage significantly if the targets don't have their resistances buffed.

SM's don't have a ST punt either with 2H, it has to be with a shield and requires block and is on a 20 second cooldown, and shield isn't much use for six man's. For the BO the same part of the mastery tree they get their block channel.

Hope it helps.

1. So does Zealot, Shaman, Chosen etc. etc.
2. Massive amuont of other classes has aswell and you don't rly care about it in bigger scale. Instead maybe you'd use m3 silence for BO and at same time risk give them free immunites
3. It's for being 2h, and in wb scale, you don't play 2h. It's barely useful do 2h tanks at all atm after recent changes
4. It's only 20%. Bg, SH and shaman has 40%. SM has m1 aoe snare with a leap which is massively useful since it is an m1. Along with SW ofc.
5. So does Kotbs, and a root. Yes BO m3 silence is strong, but you still use Bellow m2 beforehand or hold for m4
6. It's ST, not useful for any open rvr.
7. Chosen has same as an AURA, they basically don't need hit anything to apply it
8. That is the difference since Destro has always been the side with the moralebuild and their strenght when order at the same time always had other stronger side such as more raw dmg and heals
9. Choppas has increased autoattack to team, and again chosen has similar tool per automatic with their aura.

I don't say BO is useless, but ppl seem to talk as if BO has unique abilities to apply to their team that others can't.
The one thing that makes BO very strong imo is their Statstealer, which demands to keep up your aoe and keep hit targets. Lot's of the stats you stealing is alrdy applied by other classes.
I am not impressed by new BO changes especially when SM cheapily get WW as strong as Waaaaaaagh WITHOUT the need of applying a tactic to it.

Ofc you still can use all these tools to ensure the buildup times, the tiny snare etc etc. Ofc lot's of ppl in rvr DONT use these tools and run around more or less being meatwalls. A 20% snare is always better than no snare, but then again you got BG, and Shaman snare that are very very potent. Aswell as the 20% slowpots just to be a troll. 20% Snares ain't that impressing compared to 40%.
But why not just run double braindead chosens with 6 auras to fill all your needs?

Bo can give the WS and Toughness buff, but Toughness alrdy filled from Chosen. And the WS buff has always been there as a st. And who cares if healers of other tanks get a little WS buff? It was supereasy to apply your dps the WS buff as ST.

I would dev's to at least revrse the 3 combo on BO, take it back then to the original combo which most BO players want now since Waaaaaagh was removed. And please to those who way it was a ''Waaaaaaagh'' bot. Most tank classes are bots. SM took that spot as WW bot, Chosens/knight are aura bots, BG is snare bot, IB is ap bot. ALL tanks are more or less bots.
BO is easily now a 20% snare/builduptime, Statstealer and Absorb (Which zealot alrdy has lul) Bo.

I would recommend Bo run U wo Can't hit me, Absorb and Aoe snare. You can skip aoe snare for the st KD, but I assume a chosen or other useful player will use the st kd.
It's rly strong Bo specc atm and is fairly useful for a wb and makes you very strong. The WS buff can be applied with ST, its not hard.

I am more concerned about all those 1*^cities we having since last patch.

1. So does Zealot, Shaman, Chosen etc. etc.

Shaman's and Zealot's cannot guard. BO's can also buff wounds (Chosen cannot) without hitting a target directly (SM can't)

2. Massive amuont of other classes has aswell and you don't rly care about it in bigger scale. Instead maybe you'd use m3 silence for BO and at same time risk give them free immunites

The silence is a free core ability for the BO, good for a tank. When assisting targets, regardless of fight scale, it's a powerful ability along with CD increaser which BG/Chosen don't have a CD increaser

3. It's for being 2h, and in wb scale, you don't play 2h. It's barely useful do 2h tanks at all atm after recent changes

I see 2H BO's usually in premade warbands, so yes like for any good composition for a warband you do use them to support the dps, their armor debuff more consistent than the BG due to hate mechanic

4. It's only 20%. Bg, SH and shaman has 40%. SM has m1 aoe snare with a leap which is massively useful since it is an m1. Along with SW ofc.

SH/Shaman can't tank for you, 20% snare has no CD, would it be fair to match the BG's snare even though theirs a long cooldown and can't debuff strength or increase build times?

5. So does Kotbs, and a root. Yes BO m3 silence is strong, but you still use Bellow m2 beforehand or hold for m4

Part of the reason for these morale changes was because of 4+ BO's using M3, along with their dps for morale drops, the silence cannot be cleansed, powerful when healers are near the blob such as Warrior Priests, the Knight's equivalent's root morale is instantly broken and it's effect is only good for chasing/fleeing enemies.

6. It's ST, not useful for any open rvr.

Savin' Me Hide's reducing magic damage helps the party, along with the new tactic, offers additional dps damage reduction of approximately 24 dps for 20 seconds

7. Chosen has same as an AURA, they basically don't need hit anything to apply it

They can't snare or increase build times with their aura, since mdps parties I play with often use strength pots, I would only run the strength aura on my Knight/Chosen as a defensive tool, but if there is a tank like the BO that can already do it, then it let's me run a more useful aura

8. That is the difference since Destro has always been the side with the moralebuild and their strenght when order at the same time always had other stronger side such as more raw dmg and heals

Dropping M3 or M4 every minute was not balanced, balancing issues can now take place on a more even playing field.

9. Choppas has increased autoattack to team, and again chosen has similar tool per automatic with their aura.

Choppa is not a tank, BO's do increased AA damage not AA speed, looks like a good combo when paired together. Chosen's resistance debuff is only half of their resistance buff, BO can do double the amount of debuffing for corporeal resistance

Welcome your class to the "Useless Classes For City Group". Enjoy your stay!

Detangler wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 6:14 pm You guys should PM Herbalessences - he's apparently got the new Black Orc build down solid. Dude last night was top DPS and top protection on Destro... as a Black Orc... it was nuts.

Spamming bigun?